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Originally Posted by langleybaston
(Post 11279033)
Teresa?
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Finningley Boy
“I’ve never come across anything like this before” Er – it’s been a lot worse in the distant past. In the late 60s a new leader was parachuted into the team without having flown with them before ‘down the back’, so to speak. During the season work-up he was so bad at leading that the rest of the formation broke away during a display practice and landed independently. The team refused to fly with him again; a previous leader was brought in on the spot and led a successful season. It happened again in the mid 70s, although it wasn’t quite so dramatic. Unofficially, the Arrows (that’s what we used to call them - not the Reds), are the only RAF unit which can sack its own boss. ExMM |
So, will the Senior Leadership Team replace Red 1 or the team Boss?
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ExMM that is most definitely not worse than what has been going on lately, and what the investigation is uncovering.
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Originally Posted by campbeex
(Post 11279030)
Apart from the obvious, one of the disappointing aspects of this story is the lack of imagination put into nicknames in today's Royal Air Force (e.g. Damon "Damo" Green).
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Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
(Post 11279330)
One of the newbies has a nickname that is not that politically correct. I doubt he will use it and I certainly will not be offering to disclose it here.
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Originally Posted by alfred_the_great
(Post 11279415)
and this you’ve posted because?
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One of the best nicknames (call signs?) I seen recently was the one used by F35 test pilot Steve Long …..
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OMS, we had quite a few on Harrier including LOG (Schlong) and SAK. A good chuckle could be had when BAD, BAK, DIC, & HED were programmed on the same 4 ship...
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Originally Posted by Stitchbitch
(Post 11279456)
OMS, we had quite a few on Harrier including LOG (Schlong) and SAK. A good chuckle could be had when BAD, BAK, DIC, & HED were programmed on the same 4 ship...
DiC and HeD seem very appropriate for Harrier mates. (IMHO of course) 😉 |
Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
(Post 11278933)
Red Arrows pilot sacked after ‘affair’ and second quits over ‘toxic culture’ | Metro News
I've never come across anything like this before. FB |
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....add236e015.jpg
Daily Telegraph this afternoon predicts the future of the Arrows. A phot taken at Balckpool pleasure beach recently |
Bring back the Yellowjacks; or even the Black Arrows.
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Firebirds for me!
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LotofTime
Reference historical Red Arrows problems: ‘ExMM that is most definitely not worse than what has been going on lately, and what the investigation is uncovering.’ My italics I have no idea of the full ins and outs of what has just happened to the team. as I take all media reports about aviation with a large pinch of salt. However, If you had some experience of formation display aerobatics I’m sure you would agree that the prospect of the entire team being flown into the ground by an incompetent leader would certainly grab your attention. ExMM |
Always admired the Arrows over many years. Unfortunately after reading press accounts of this apparent debacle I sadly have to say that should the Government decide we can no longer afford them then I would be saddened but not devastated. To not be able to perform a 9 ship team is totally disappointing and an embarrassment for both the RAF &UK. The resources required have, in recent years, been repaid in global pride and esteem whilst inspiring potential recruits (albeit not it seems of the required ethnic quota). In the current economic crisis there are probably many who feel the money could be spent in more needy areas. Can anyone put forward the argument they deserve to continue to exist or could we have 2 more Wedgetails instead? Personally would like both!!
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Originally Posted by Finningley Boy
(Post 11278955)
Not meaning to be nosey but I wonder what the Toxic culture is that's referred to? Just can't imagine this in the days of the Great Red Arrows leaders of the past, Lee Jones, Ray Hannah AFC*, Ian Dick, Brian Hoskins etc.
FB |
Originally Posted by brianj
(Post 11279650)
Always admired the Arrows over many years. Unfortunately after reading press accounts of this apparent debacle I sadly have to say that should the Government decide we can no longer afford them then I would be saddened but not devastated. To not be able to perform a 9 ship team is totally disappointing and an embarrassment for both the RAF &UK. The resources required have, in recent years, been repaid in global pride and esteem whilst inspiring potential recruits (albeit not it seems of the required ethnic quota). In the current economic crisis there are probably many who feel the money could be spent in more needy areas. Can anyone put forward the argument they deserve to continue to exist or could we have 2 more Wedgetails instead? Personally would like both!!
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Originally Posted by exMudmover
(Post 11279243)
Finningley Boy
“I’ve never come across anything like this before” Er – it’s been a lot worse in the distant past. In the late 60s a new leader was parachuted into the team without having flown with them before ‘down the back’, so to speak. During the season work-up he was so bad at leading that the rest of the formation broke away during a display practice and landed independently. The team refused to fly with him again; a previous leader was brought in on the spot and led a successful season. It happened again in the mid 70s, although it wasn’t quite so dramatic. Unofficially, the Arrows (that’s what we used to call them - not the Reds), are the only RAF unit which can sack its own boss. ExMM FB |
Originally Posted by brianj
(Post 11279650)
Always admired the Arrows over many years. Unfortunately after reading press accounts of this apparent debacle I sadly have to say that should the Government decide we can no longer afford them then I would be saddened but not devastated. To not be able to perform a 9 ship team is totally disappointing and an embarrassment for both the RAF &UK. The resources required have, in recent years, been repaid in global pride and esteem whilst inspiring potential recruits (albeit not it seems of the required ethnic quota). In the current economic crisis there are probably many who feel the money could be spent in more needy areas. Can anyone put forward the argument they deserve to continue to exist or could we have 2 more Wedgetails instead? Personally would like both!!
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Daddy, Daddy, When I grow up I want to be a Red Arrows pilot! Sorry son, you can't do both!
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Originally Posted by cynicalint
(Post 11279716)
Daddy, Daddy, When I grow up I want to be a Red Arrows pilot! Sorry son, you can't do both!
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I think many of the RAF's best fast jet pilots avoid the Reds.
The role requires parading in the public eye, which doesn't sit well with many warfighters and can, in extreme cases, attract the wrong type of individual. I do hope the RAF get this sorted. It could be seen as a good thing that the dirty laundry is being aired in public and I hope that the problem is dealt with head on, with no half-measures. Whether it's an individual, or a recruitment process - things clearly need to change, for the long-term success of the team, and before the accidents start to happen again. |
Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
(Post 11279446)
Because non political nicknames still exist?
Also "political and non-political" pilot nicknames don't exist outside the minds of teenage and twenty-something Twitter users. Wet blanket. |
"The accidents". one way or another, have not stopped, unless one has short memory.
The very existence of the Reds depends on an unquantifiable belief that they are good for recruiting, image, trade, prestige, ceremonial and the like. On the cost side they gobble up funds, maintain obsolete aircraft, keep about a dozen trained fast-jet pilots from useful roles, and consume vast amounts of red paint, dye, fuel and vino. Time was, but this is 2022. Perhaps we should try to do without, as we are practising with fewer and fewer. |
Originally Posted by STIG781
(Post 11280319)
They mean why mention it yet not state the nickname?
Also "political and non-political" pilot nicknames don't exist outside the minds of teenage and twenty-something Twitter users. Wet blanket. |
Originally Posted by Low average
(Post 11279805)
I do hope the RAF get this sorted. It could be seen as a good thing that the dirty laundry is being aired in public and I hope that the problem is dealt with head on, with no half-measures. Whether it's an individual, or a recruitment process - things clearly need to change, for the long-term success of the team, and before the accidents start to happen again.
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I agree with LB, I served as groundcrew on 92 (Biue Diamonds) and we still had an AD role in Fighter Command. In these difficult times , good as they are they are a luxury we can ill afford.
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I struggle to see how, if pilots leave as planned at the end of the year, RAFAT will rebuild as a nine ship and bring the rear section back to the show. Reds 4 and 6 have done 5 and 4 years respectively, with Red 5 also coming towards the end of his expected time on the team. That leaves Red 7 to move up to synchro lead with 3 pilots required to move to the back of the team and somehow recreated the Gypo break etc. Public maths, if people leave as planned, there would only be 2 pilots available to move back to the roles of Red 7,8 and 9. It is not a safe course of action unless people stay on for another year and help rebuild the team.
Assuming that things are as bad as they seem at Scampton, why would anybody wish to remain beyond their expected tour? This might be a natural time for the RAF to consign RAFAT to the history books. Their display this year is, at best, lame and I fear that too much damage has been done. |
Gypo break etc. |
Well, this will be interesting...
The RAF Red Arrows will return to the Middle East this year as part of a five week tour, making their debut at the Bahrain International Airshow and visiting the nations of Egypt, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. The Royal Air Force announced on Monday that the team will be participating at the Bahrain International Airshow on the 9th-11th November 2022 – one of the region’s most important aviation trade shows, held biannually since 2010. While in the region, the team will tour several other nations, including Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, supporting the UK’s business and defence initiatives. The RAF said they also hoped the tour would include the team’s first visit to Egypt in almost 20 years. Totalling five weeks, the tour will begin after their European display season ends, likely commencing in early October and finishing in mid-November. Their European season began in France on the 28th May, with their final appearance currently scheduled for the Great North Run on Saturday 11th September. The Middle East is the Red Arrows’ most recent destination outside Europe, with the team having visited in 2014, 2016 and 2017. In 2019, they instead toured North America, but returned to the Middle East for a short mini-tour in 2021 in support of the UK’s participation in the delayed Expo 2020 event in Dubai. This will be the Red Arrows’ first visit to the region as a seven-ship team; the squadron is performing with just seven jets this year, rather than the usual nine, after the unexpected departure of two pilots during pre-season training. |
Eight performing at Benson today. Pic courtesy of a family member.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....d5c7de093.jpeg Nice cars too! |
I see MT has improved, or is it cutbacks and they haven't been able to replace them yet?
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 11280799)
I see MT has improved, or is it cutbacks and they haven't been able to replace them yet?
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I'm afraid the Reds are ready to be consigned to history just like the field gun and mast manning. Nice while it lasted but definitely not the best anymore and hardly relevant as a showcase of British industry. Years ago people on here were claiming that "It only cost 10 million a year" (yeh right) and was "value for money". When a twin rotor Wokka can wow the crowds without all the drama about who's made who cry behind the scenes, that's value for money; especially when the aircraft actually has a day job! Cheers now
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Originally Posted by oldgrubber
(Post 11281112)
I'm afraid the Reds are ready to be consigned to history just like the field gun and mast manning. Nice while it lasted but definitely not the best anymore and hardly relevant as a showcase of British industry. Years ago people on here were claiming that "It only cost 10 million a year" (yeh right) and was "value for money". When a twin rotor Wokka can wow the crowds without all the drama about who's made who cry behind the scenes, that's value for money; especially when the aircraft actually has a day job! Cheers now
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Originally Posted by The Oberon
(Post 11281122)
What he said. I have always been an air show fan but I usually left before the Red Arrows "topped the bill". I have always preferred to watch a solo Lightening, Phantom, Harrier, Tornado or Typhoon solo display and judging from crowd reactions, I wasn't the only one
Watching the Reds at big seaside shows - with the real British public - the massive applause, oohs and ahhs makes me proud to have once served and the crowd's reaction sends a tingle down the spine. But I appreciate for some - a chip on the shoulder or jealously - may not appreciate the excellence on display. |
Does the excellence on display add value to the RAF or U.K. plc ? If so, keep them. If not, well……
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Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 11281133)
Does the excellence on display add value to the RAF or U.K. plc ? If so, keep them. If not, well……
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KK,
I have neither a chip on my shoulder nor jealousy towards the 'Arrows' I have been there as I stated (as an Air Radar fitter I was on the 'Derv' team !) BUT we also ,as I said we played our part in AD exercises and the like. As we appear to be lacking in FJ pilots and groundcrew my take is that these members of the 'Arrows' could be more usefully employed elsewhere in the RAF. Given the 'diversity' pause in RAF recruiting I do wonder who would attempt join the RAF just because of one of their displays . |
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