Possibly low resolution radar images of Moskva last moments and also news the fleet in Sevastopol may have sailed and is heading for Ukraine.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...d/#prettyPhoto

Well let's see, we know when the missiles were fired and what they were fired at, we know when Moskva called for help. we know what Ukraine's unverified claims were before we heard from Russia and we know she sank. Would it be reasonable to conclude that none of these things are related. I think not. However it would be better for us in the western world to believe that as a consequence of Russia's corrupt or dodgy practices and lack of proper maintenance over the last 20 years that has made it's military machine somewhat of an issue.
It makes me wonder what the state of their ballistic missiles are like in that environment among those engineers that believe they would never be used. probably why those engineers go to North Korea, where the pay is better.

The first line of that interesting article is quite clever: "The Russian cruiser Moskva will go down in history."

Edit, in order to add a reader's comment I found on another site.
Sister ships of her class visited Norfolk and San Diego in the 1990s. The visits were well documented in the press and in some naval publications, one of which I still have. One of the things US Navy visitors found noteworthy was the complete lack of firefighting and damage control equipment in them. Every compartment and passageway of US and Japanese warships are packed full of fire hoses, fire mains, low light cameras, breathing apparatus, wooden timbers to shore up sagging bulkhead, wooden wedges to hammer into leaks, fire axes, saws, sledge hammers, battery operated battle lanterns, etc.. None of that was apparent on the Russian ships. It doesn't surprise me they could not control the fires and flooding. However they did have a real fancy spa with a pool and fake waterfall for the crew to relax in.


From https://japantoday.com/category/worl...sinks#comments

What does the loss of life say about crew training, resilience or command? Loss of the ship doesn't appear to have been "instantaneous" and it wasn't in Arctic (albeit possibly cold) water. The loss of life in the apparent circumstances is shocking.

If what has been leaked out is true, then about 90 mins before she went down, if only 54 were saved, also unconfirmed, then that is probably as bad as it gets.

Given what has been happening to people who failed Putin it would be no surprise if the command staff chose to go down with the ship. The whole business continues to demonstrate Russian overconfidence in the superiority of their war machine and of course the pointless tragedy caused by one man‘s megalomania.

Do you have a reference for that, because it doesn't fit with the way that the P-500 Bazalt/P-1000 Vulkan missiles were deployed operationally.

Those missiles were originally fitted to Russian submarines and the tubes were mounted outside the pressure hull. It would not be feasible to fuel the missiles before launch. Same same for warships like the Kievs and the Slavas - it's just not feasible to have tanks of liquid rocket fuel and oxidiser stored on a warship that needs to be pumped into your main offensive armament before you can use it.

Everything I have read indicates that the missiles are loaded to their launch canisters fuelled. That would be no different to US practice with the Tomahawk and Harpoon.

And no doubt all of Russias wealthiest most prominent military peoples sons, who are not going to be happy.

While not the missile used, could you imagine two of these hitting a fully armed ship, no wonder there could be heavy casualties.

Does anyone know the time of missile(s) impact ?

The [RORSAT] satellite passed at 6.52pm local time, on [Wednesday] April 13, https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...as-she-burned/

Then here are the key timings of subsequent events from the wiki source references (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_cruiser_Moskva)

"Ukrainian presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych and Odesa governor Maksym Marchenko said their forces hit Moskva on 13 April 2022, with two R-360 Neptune anti-ship cruise missiles, and she was on fire"
(I've not been able to locate this tweet, though I recollect seeing something like it at about 10pm in Greece, which is the same time zone as Odessa in Ukraine)

"According to him, an SOS signal was recorded from the cruiser at 1:05 p.m."

"At 1.14 a.m., the cruiser lay on its side, and after half an hour, all the electricity went out. From 2 a.m., the Turkish ship evacuated 54 sailors from the cruiser, and at about 3 a.m., Turkiye and Romania reported that the ship had completely sunk. The related loss of Russian personnel is still unknown, although there were 485 crew on board (66 of them officers)," Anusauskas said.

The various accounts of Bayraktar TB2 involvement are inconclusive re timing, though the Forbes one suggests that Moskva was on fire by time of local darkness:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/3...-attack-moskva
https://charter97.org/en/news/2022/4/14/463477/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/unicefu...ucha-ukraine/?

I wonder where they landed the survivors, or did they transfer them to a Russian ship.

Sky news talks about 100 survivors 'confirmed'. but despite a few snippets of other information it does not support that confirmation. Their resident expert also alleges that one of the missiles hit a large launcher tube on deck.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-w...safer-12590711

Probably speaks volumes about Russia's attitude to crew 'survivability'.... i.e. they are expendable

And the Neptune has a 20 percent larger warhead than that.

The discussion I seen from pro russian sites is that the 2 missiles struck. Completely out of control fire and flooding. Ammunition explosion about 20 minutes later turtled the ship. Sunk about an hour or so later. They are also claiming about 400 dead from crew and additional naval marines billeted on the ship for special operations. So about 100 to 150 survivors

Sky said one may have hit one of the launcher tubes which are near the bridge.

A couple of the RN members on Arrse none too complimentary about the state of the Russian ships either. Either not fitted/missing equipment as described above, or what was there was in rag order. Access panels painted over, rust everywhere, particularly in areas that they weren’t supposed to see that they got glimpses of. And these were ships that had been prepared for visits.

Who would have been onboard a vessel like this? The crew and the captain, above him an admiral and staff for the Black Sea fleet group and a detachment of naval infantry for special operations and such? What happened to them? Who was in charge and who is accounted for?

Local sunset in Odeassa is 19:45 direction 286° West. So if the two (?) missiles did not either/both put in significant doglegs (though some doglegs would be the norm) then they were likely coming from roughly up-sun if it was a late-afternoon / early evening engagement. That is one reason I am trying to understand the time of engagement. Another is to understand the damage control timing better.

If the main phased array radar was either trying to track one (or more ?) TB2 on a different bearing, then it is possible that the first observation might have been visual. That is not so unusual with these sorts of naval engagements.

The RORSAT pictures show the Russian vessels in a NE-SW line, almost as if they were seeking to act as a radar blockade as well as a surface blockade, the point being that it is possible there was no other vessel that was more up-threat than the Moskva itself.

The speculation regarding the SSN-12 deck-mounted missles going up has, as far as I can see, no evidence basis. I'm not saying it is unlikely, but we have no reason to believe it vs any other explanation. I too suspect she rolled over fairly quickly - that would be consistent with what has been observed about Russian naval architecture and the likely damage and the reported level of casualties. Again, understanding the timeline is informative if more information is forthcoming.

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Looking to the future it is fairly obvious that the loss of that Moskva radar and the associated S300 battery on Moskva leaves a pretty big hole in the Russian anti-air defences in that sector. The remaining vessels do not have anywhere near the same anti-air capabilities as the Moskva did.

The SA-4 "Gecko" SAMs on the two Krivak frigates and the corvettes only have a ~10-mile range. Therefore these have no real impact on the aviation war over the land, and a really only for self-defense purposes.

The naval variant of the SA-11/17/27 "Buk" SAMs on the three Grigorovich are the later VLS type with a range of 50km/30nm, so comparable to Sea Dart and looking at the specs not to be sneered at. Useful as a naval task force area air defence system, but not really capable of directly intervening in the aviation war over the land unless they are able to park the ships right up close to the coast (which to be fair, they can do in Azov Sea and by Crimea).

Overall the loss of the Moskva has pretty much taken the Russian Navy out of the game of direct intervention in aviation over the land area of Ukraine which will reduce complications and provide opportunities for Ukraine pilots / UAVs.

However the remaining naval platforms may still have some utility as ESM platforms, and the Grigorovichs have a pretty potent radar system. I'm not sure if the Russians can network that into a common air picture with their land sensors.

The Ukraine now has a lot more freedom to manouevre both in the air and at sea in the south, onshore and offshore. Whether they have anything left that floats is a different matter. They are however due to receive at least one USV soonish.

[edit : I see Wiki has been updated since my post this morning, and is now saying the missile egagement was in "Ukrainian presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych and Odesa governorMaksym Marchenko said their forces hit Moskva in the early hours of 13 April 2022,". That implies far earlier in the day than previously thought. It is possible that the night-time image referred to in the Forbes aticle I referenced was taken in early morning 13-Apr rather than late evening 13-Apr]

Shocking to think the Russian's priority appeared to be to tow the vessel back to Sevastopol to avoid the humiliation of its loss, rather than concentrate on rescuing any crew members who may still have been trapped below decks, or recovering the bodies of those who died. Its the Kursk all over again.

There's been much discussion about loitering munitions, but does such a thing as a sub-surface loitering munition exist e.g. a sea mine with sensors and propulsion? Would seem a fairly obvious weapon to develop.

Very much so, the US Navy version is called the Captor, been around for decades and iirc it used a Mk-46 lightweight torpedo configured as a mine, creating a loitering torpedo. I've no idea how smart the holding package is, but certainly expect that it has seen significant improvement thanks to more modern electronics, making the weapon much more versatile..

The USN plans to use XLUUV ORCA to deploy Hammerhead mines (Captor replacement).

I do wonder if they were attempting to get it to shallow waters or a port where the facilities are available to carry out a rescue, in the middle of the sea in a warzone is not the place to congregate various vessels to attempt a rescue knowing the ship you are attempting to rescue folks off was hit at that location. If it was buoyant the last thing you would want to be doing would be cutting holes in the hull. But I am just guessing as the nearest I have been to see is a ferry.

"n the middle of the sea in a warzone is not the place to congregate various vessels to attempt a rescue knowing the ship you are attempting to rescue folks off was hit at that location."

Correct - remember the three British cruisers torpedoed early in WW1 when they tried to rescue the crews of each other..................

Maybe they were ordered to save the nukes first?

Remaining saved crew - assuming they are the actual crew and not PR stand-ins.

Not sure how the crew would have been retrieved, recovered, re-uniformed and in a fit state to go on parade so soon after their ship being sunk under them…

I recall reading an article (probably AW&ST) maybe 40 years ago about a test of a then new US Navy anti-ship weapon (Harpoon?). Anyway, the target was a decommissioned US warship - but fully prepared with all the watertight doors shut, etc.
The missile didn't have any warhead, but the kinetic energy of the missile impact along with the residual fuel caused such a massive explosion that the target ship broke-up and sank. :eek:
Reportedly the Navy was rather unhappy that the target ship sank as they had planned to use it for something else...

They do appear to be in remarkably good health given the traumatic event they've just experienced. Not a flash burn in sight

Plus all the trees appear to be in full bloom.

Regardless of sides I do find this ( I believe a Russian’s ) tribute rather moving. As someone says in the comments, they treated the people off Snake Island fairly and they were eventually released.




..

The reserve crew of the Moskva I wager.

I seem. to recall reading that the anti-ship, anti-U-boat, anti-armour rockets used in WW2 on Swordfish, Mosquitos ect. on maritime missions and. by Typhoons overland were equivalent to a 6 inch AP shell and often penetrated the pressure hulls of U-boats and exited the other side leaving 2 large holes which rapidly flooded the hulls.
Momentum is a wonderful thing or not depending on your point of view.

I'll need to do a bit of digging, but for some reason I think that was a Tomahawk TASM (ASCM) test. (Early version, before the land attack versions were rolled out). Let me see what I can figure out.

All look remarkably “old” and unscathed. I am as sceptical as you..

I haven't seen these photos, but really what purpose will they serve? Potentially smooth the waters for a week or two, but when the stories of 400+ bereaved families seep out into the news - initially in Sevastopol but then nationally and internationally - Putin's empire is once again exposed as the dyed-in-the-wool liars they are.

Perhaps that's still the problem. They were only ever taught short-term cover-up, as long-term was - previously - not needed.

Isn't there a posthumous medal for giving life in active duty? Do the Russians still publish that now? If they do, that maybe a clue. I doubt they do. Most died a horrible death, occuring due the actions by one man and his henchmen.

Either way, the people in the video purporting to be moskva survivors look like little more than a rabble

There have been a variety of live fire tests for both Harpoon and Tomahawk over the years. Harpoons were used against a decommissioned amphibious supply ship (formerly the USS Durham) during the SINKEX phase of RIMPAC 2020 - https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...nking-exercise A Tomahawk was used in a live fire against barge stacked with shipping containers in 2015 - https://news.usni.org/2015/02/09/vid...aritime-target There are undoubtedly others.

How about in the Iraq War...any used there against the Iraqi Navy?

The Battle of Bubiyan of the first Gulf War saw over 20 Iraqi Navy vessels sunk in one action. Mainly smaller vessels like fast attack craft, patrol boats and mine layer/sweepers were sunk, over half to Royal Navy Sea Skua missiles (~30 kg HE warhead), half a dozen to laser-guided bombs. There was even an attempted engagement of a fast attack boat by a Canadian Hornet using a Sparrow air-to-air missile - the Hornet could lock the target up but the missile failed to track.