Sorry Pr00ne, your attitude to security and the safety of serving personnel on the fringes of a war zone is disgraceful.
You fail to grasp the basics here.

I'm out of this discussion, I have said my piece.

All I ask is that before ANYONE posts ANYTHING on here, facebook, twitter etc they THINK about what harm they could cause. Every single snippet of intel "could" be useful.

My post was in response to the OP who was having a go at "spotters" posting info and opinions. Whilst I still maintain that most Opsec was in fact rubbish, and designed to conceal embarrassment and wrong doing in high places, so much so that it seemed to glory in hiding information from the public and press that was known, or sometimes even provided, to the likes of the Soviets. Opsec clearly has its place, but not in the clumsy hamfisted way it was applied in my day, and in 2022 needs to recognise the reality of the modern world with social media and instant communication, and an informed and sophisticated public who will no longer tolerate secrecy for secrecy sake.

Please be free to mind your own business about my attitude! It may have escaped your attention but this is a war between Russian and Ukraine and no UK personnel are currently involved. Every single snippet of intel "could' be useful? For goodness sake this is a rumour site on social media, get real!

Pr00ne, I see and understand your position. I agree fully that hiding information for purely political reasons is entirely wrong, Not concealing wrong doing and embarrassment in high places is something where we are in violent agreement . I fully agree with not tolerating secrecy for secrecy's sake and not covering up corruption or incompetence. My point, all along, is to highlight the folly of giving open source material veracity and credence by using it in a discussion on a site like this, to show superior knowledge or as has been alluded to before "I knew this before you".

So, here's an example of how far things have gone now.
All in the public domain - widely known about and discussed, so no new revelations.
Civilians doing their own detailed MASINT on synthetic aperture radar.
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources...radar-systems/
I find it astonishing, and also have no doubt that military radar operators are well aware of this.
Note the five day revisit of the satellites mentioned further down in the article, so it's not real time.

I didn't intend to start this thread; my post was in response to something on the 'Ukraine' thread, but the PPRuNe admin decided to use it to open this thread.... Which came as a surprise.

Nevertheless, there are some good views on this thread. And there are others.....

SO1 J2 in Moscow telling his analysts to read this thread...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ada42b896c.gif

Thank you ^^^

lol ;) pretty much sums it up

If Putin adopted the Johnson & McNamara practice of advising the next days targets it would help no end, done to avoid civilian casualties it was said.

"by using it in a discussion on a site like this, to show superior knowledge"

Yes but on Pprune almost any post is immediately followed by posters disagreeing, correcting, suggesting some other explanation, or commenting in even more detail (often wandering miles off subject).

Concise reportage and conclusions are not found on PPrune

How do the Russians (for example) decide who is putting up an informed view and which are noise from someone who retired 40 years ago? We can't................ and I doubt they can - the odd nugget is drowned by a bucket load of ... something else

Knowing the typical Thread drifts which every forum tends to take, it probably rather serves as distraction. While wading through hundreds of posts full of personal opinion, they can't do real intel... :E

Someone needs to throttle the BBC reporting live from a railway station and reporting movements.

But setting it up on the side of a main road it would suggest they were hoping it would get published to get the message over loud and clear.

The german ACT, (DFS) has an internetsite wich shows the traffic in the lower airspace.
It is suposed to be used for noise complains.
That site is down, since the beginning of the war.

https://stanlytrack3.dfs.de/st3/STANLY_Track3.html

I agree with much that is said here re opsec on SPECIFIC events, eg the idiot who identified the GR4s accompanying the tanker northbound. However, even I who have been out of "the loop" for 25 years can put two and two together and assume that where there are tankers in a seeming towline over Eastern Europe for hours on end that there will be some sort of tactical asset depending on them, especially as the strategic assets don't go anywhere near them. As they are showing up on ADSB I can only assume that NATO wants the Russians to know they are there otherwise I suspect their mode S would be quickly switched off, as are most of the tactical assets in the UK airspace. Now, if I can work that out perhaps Ivan, whose sole job is to gather intel on what is where and when, can also work it out and that all the BEDEWINDOW criers on here could maybe understand that and stop calling people with an interest in this sort of thing names?

For goodness sake the MoD had invited news camera teams onboard the Voyager filming the Typhoons alongside! It was on media across the globe from GB News to CNN via Al Jazeera. There have been official press releases from the MoD on the enhanced NATO patrols that the RAF is carrying out. it is NOT a secret!!!!!!!!

Over inflated sense of self worth.
 

Whilst I agree with the idea that ‘loose lips sink ships’ this thread does make me smile. If Russia’s intelligence services are in the position where Pprune is the first place they have heard a snippet of useful information then I would suggest we truly have nothing to fear from them.

That being said I will continue to make zero comments about any military matters in Ukraine. Mainly because I have absolutely nothing of interest to add.

BV

Mostly my point!! I hadn't seen that news report.

Somebody did a paper about it that is on line is here https://kar.kent.ac.uk/50411. There is a timeline at the end of the document that covers when information was released. The Information about UXB's came out of a few MOD press briefings, the reports from the Press guys down there were heavily censored and it didn't come from them. Yes it was incompetent and the Royal Navy stamped down on it very quickly. Of the attacks that happened afterwards, there were still a large number of UXB's with 50% plus of the bombs being dropped failing to explode.

I wonder if the Russians have considered infiltrating spotter groups.

It would be, apparently, a much more efficient and effective means of finding out what the baddies are doing instead of the traditional intelligence gathering activities which are, no doubt, continuing as we speak.

Krain???
You mean those pesky spotter groups on the Ukrainian Air bases?
Or do you think they are so bored by this war in Ukraine that they are already dealing with other stuff in parallel to keep the boredom at bay?

They have been infiltrating Pprune, for sure ...

And learned how much we love and respect them, no doubt.

Not long after Gulf War 2 I saw a report on RN refuelling ops just outside the Gulf at a classified position which was often changed for reasons of security.
Well, I checked a AIS ship spotting site and there was a UK tanker loitering in the area happily broadcasting its location to the world.
I contacted a Tanker Mooring Master friend who was ex-RN, He contacted a RN friend of some high rank and told him the tanker’s name , location, track were readily available on the internet and that someone had probably not turned off the guilty AIS box. The fellow was most surprised to learn of this and said some very bad words.
By the next morning it was off and probably disconnected with extreme prejudice. I would have liked to have seen a copy of that message from Admiralty to the Commander of the vessel concerned and seen his reaction. There were probably some new rules and procedures promulgated ASAP.

Indeed. The word is ex. We don't see anyone on here that is not. I may have been seen with **** whom maybe. He tells me nothing and I don't expect him to either.

Occasionally one or two pop up, like the USAF F-35A that did a tour of Poland a week or so back. Which I suspect was entirely intentional.

Similarly, it's not uncommon to see RAF Typhoons on ADSB coming out of Cyprus, but for the transponder to be turned off as they turn north. And these large tanker aircraft aren't flying oblongs around Eastern Europe for nothing.

I think the general public, and indeed some of the 'enthusiast' community, have no idea about what may or may not be useful. Anyone who has served in the military is steeped in the idea that information is kept confidential and compartmentalised, not just 'no need to know' but 'no need to share'. The reason there was a need for the 'Careless Talk Costs Lifes' campaign is that most outside the Forces 'bubble' don't appreciate what OPSEC involves.

Loose Lips.
 

Shhh! Don't let them know that the availability of Vulcan pilots with currency is depleted.

Given that the Russians don't seem to be able to get sandwiches to their troops, their commanders alive and any tactical progress, maybe a post on pprune about where a certain aircraft was probably isnt as important to the decision makers as we might think ?

Gosh, that Falklands report is an illuminating read.
Separate briefings - one for editors, another for firstline major media, another for second line.
Different MOD people, giving different information to each.
Several occasions where UXBs were openly discussed in front of journalists, and even mentioned in MOD releases, prior to the publication of the details of fusing etc.
Blimey...

Wasn’t the Falklands I counted them all out and I counted them all back again the result of security issues and the BBC reporter being told not to release numbers of aircraft involved.

Correct.
Brian Hanrahan - RIP.

Nutty. As I recall he mentioned that as part of the broadcast in that he could not mention the number of aircraft operating but that all of them had returned safely.

As far as the general discussion here’s a thought. I was about to click on the sky news (UK) YouTube channel when up popped a link to an item from Forces News. Clearly, they have no idea about OPSEC as there was a reporter broadcasting from inside a V*****r refuelling T******s flying over Rom***a. I do hope someone from pprune writes to them pointing out the error of their ways!

On the other hand, if all of the squadrons personal phones go dark, one can draw intel from that too. Needs a chap to take all the phones down the local while the unit is on ops.

Obviously I was slack in making my point clearly enough.
There is a a very real difference between reporting what HAS happened, what IS happening, and what WILL happen.
Read the three "headlines" and tell me which ones are news, and which ones are giving away useful information.

1. Yesterday, members of " Para attacked Goose Green.
2. Right now, members of 2 Para are attacking Goose Green.
3. Tomorrow 2 Para will attack Goose Green.


This is the kind of prevalent low-low information bandied around unchallenged on spotter's pages. The responsible groups stamp it out.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....a5b1749a15.jpg

​​​​​​Report it to the Station Execs that they're setting patterns. STARS has probably been compromised by now anyway.

Spotters will find out what's going on, they're like dickers. I've been in CAs on SPTA where one spotter has been seen in the trees, and by the time we've done a few more CAs in the general area there will be 4 or 5 taking pictures. WhatsApp/Facebook/FR24 allows instant broadcast of info, the comments that go with it are pure assumption. I've seen my own flights being tracked on groups with people saying "they're doing this or that" when we were doing nothing of the sort. It's great for virtual people watching with a brew.

Wait a minute. If the publication of operational patterns such as take off times is such an egregious sin, have you not just breached OPSEC rules by bringing this spotter group to the attention of the Russians?!

Well, according to many on here No I haven't because "it is in public domain" and Mr and Mrs Kalshnikov living at No. 16 Runway End Cottages, will know already. ;-)

There is much to be said for living in a country that allows this activity when there are many that would see you thrown into prison or worse. You make a good point that spotters take a little information and make out they know everything when in fact they know nothing of importance. On the plus side the endless FR24 screenshots have stopped.

I think this constant flow of low-level info must be useful to someone though how you stop it I do not know. The MoD thinks so by allegedly banning Whatsapp as quoted here
I know it's the Daily Wail but this story seems authentic