Hello. The senior ex-mil source insists that 1 Harrier was UK, 1 was US, the diamond was real, and the US harrier was there because of the diamond in case it went down. He could, of course, be leading us down the garden path, but one has to trust somebody in all this. The only "real" photo anyone has is the terrible quality photocopy from TNA, and little to nothing can be read from it about the weather/location. All the rest out there are mock-ups, but all the people we've spoken to who saw the actual photos in the 1990s agree that the mock-ups pretty much match what they themselves were shown back then. We think we might know the real location where the photo was taken (TBC).

Nothing has ever been said as to "Why were they Harriers?" I speculate, but it is only that, that the Harriers' ability to hover/land might have been potentially required in the event something went wrong with the diamond. Or they just might have been what was to hand on that Saturday at whichever base/installation they came from.

Reasonably, what even accounts for the diamond (assuming it was real and worked as suggested) even flying near Calvine and hovering there, except for some kind of adverse issue? The diamond, perhaps, had an issue, and the Harriers were then despatched to escort it. They flew past, doubled back, found it, had reasonable endurance to stay on site while whatever was wrong with it was overcome or "worked around", and then when that was completed, they left and the diamond went on its way. Is there any other likely reason?

Thanks

I will leave a Harrier pilot to comment on your land/hover theory but I think it unlikely. You have also compounded the issue by throwing a USMC Harrier into the mix. Where would that have come from? Why would they want to land or hover - what could two Harrier pilots do? As to the idea it was what was to hand - an RAF Harrier and a US Harrier? Does that sound plausible? Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? Solve that and you may get closer to an answer.

The other issue you need to address is why a late August Saturday afternoon? Trials are normally conducted weekdays unless it wasn't "one of ours". If it wasn't ours, surely it would be a QRA job, not a Harrier, especially as there is no evidence that any Harriers were airborne anywhere in the UK that day.

If you cannot account for the only two credible objects, the story starts to fall apart.

A Harrier would have to be at a low fuel weight to be able to hover - and then still have to recover to whatever base it was flying from. Vertical landing on anything other than a prepared (concrete or PSA planking) surface would result in a trip home on a Queen Mary with a knackered donk.

Neither idea is a starter.

Mog

On the one hand, much of this event is implausible in the extreme. On the other hand, I have on my desk a copy of 'Greenglow' by Ronald Evans that I sometimes pick up for a read wondering whether its an elaborate joke or if there's something in it.

A fascinating Thread that surely deserves the Nessie Award for 2022?

As a complete outsider, it seems riddled in holes and conspiracy theories.

However, I shall continue to read in a state of suspended reality.

Hello.

Believe you me, I would be the first to admit there are many holes in all this, and what's left is itself contradictory! With the physical evidence destroyed or missing, we're really seeking personal testimonies from involved parties.

I have admittedly never flown anything, so I am more than happy to accept Mogwi's point re: Harriers not being able to land on anything other than a man-made surface. Thanks for that.

In fairness, I am only repeating, to the extent I'm able, what we've been told by a very senior former military source who volunteered the information to us unprompted. Admittedly, he could be deliberately misleading us. He could even be unintentionally misleading us (telling us what he thinks is true but he has himself been misled). Once one starts to go down that route, though, one seems to lose sense of what's up and what's down, so when people who we don't yet have reason to doubt tell us something, we have tried to treat them as if they were straight shooters.

Where were Harriers from 2 nations operating together in 1990? [I would be extremely grateful for an answer to this question if anyone knows. Or even if anyone knows where just US Harriers were in Scotland in 1990, other than Machrihanish.

I'm not trying to split hairs, but according to the file, it was closer to 9pm. Again, though, we don't (yet) know. We don't know if it was a trial per se or whether it was some kind of semi-abort during a pre-Gulf War mission. If it was American, as suggested to us, we assume it would have been a fully functional craft on its way to a target or destination. A source has indicated that the diamond was on its way to the Gulf, but that's yet another as yet uncorroborated (if potentially logical) piece of the puzzle.

We also understood QRA to be a matter of pilots being on duty at immediate readiness for foreign incursions, such as when the Russians muck about off the top of Scotland. I would be happy to stand corrected on this, but if a US craft suddenly needed assistance and sought to enter UK airspace, (a) how difficult would it be and/or (b) how quickly could it be done, for those in the know to call up RAF ATC and say, "If you see a blip or 3 near Calvine, just ignore them, OK? Don't launch QRA."

Fleetingly, we toyed with the idea of the AV-8B having been from a ship such as an amphibious assault ship, but we couldn't locate a suitable candidate in Atlantic waters in August 1990. [Again, we're happy to be told otherwise.] There was a NATO training exercise in the North Sea and Norway in September 1990 (TEAMWORK 90), so we had wondered if the plane had been on a ship that had come over early, but so far we don't have any evidence for that theory.

Thanks

The occupation of Kuwait did not begin until 2 Aug 90. Is it remotely plausible that an extremely classified US asset would risk exposure just 2 days later? The West had have plenty of ways of gathering intelligence via the usual methods. The Gulf War had not even been thought of.

Exercise TEAMWORK 90 did not take place until 6-23 September 1990. The only carrier involvement I can find is HMS Ark Royal. A USN carrier would not pitch up in early August for something not starting for another month. The landing forces were marines from the UK and the Netherlands, no mention of USMC that I can find.

I don’t really understand how the senior military source gets one RAF and one USMC Harrier from the photo. As I said earlier,my initial impression was of a Hunter, and no sign of a second aircraft. If JARIC, or whoever could identify the nationalities of the aircraft they must have seen a MUCH better picture than I did. OR they have another source of information.

How about a development of the MBB Lampyridae? That was in development in the 1980s. Looks spookily like the craft described:

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....40bd137d2.jpeg

Here is a YouTube video about it:

Also, some more details here: http://www.rp-one.net/lampyridae/lampy.html

It can't hover and only a 12m long piloted model was produced and would not have been flying over Scotland at the weekend.
A better contender (it we ignore the ability to hover and no sound aspect) would be an F-117

According to the senior source's version of events, the source got the RAF and USMC information from the 6 prints originally taken by MoD from the negatives and, later, from the Americans themselves.

We have 5 separate witnesses who claim to have seen the photos in the 1990s, and none of them say the diamond was the F-117.

The “Senior source” quote worries me a bit. What does the OP regard as as such? Wing Commander, Air rank?

I appreciate the higher up the chain the greater risk of identifying an individual, but in some circles a wg cdr was seen as “senior”.

Technically anything from Sqn Ldr and above but competence is far more important than seniority.

Hello. If anyone is interested in looking into this for themselves, and they live near or visit Kew, I believe TNA have some undigitised files on it: https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C1225338

This link is for the page below (but larger), and it is from the above TNA file, I believe: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E_RDphvX...jpg&name=large

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8e70abd7fd.jpg

Thanks very much for this.

Was this something you were personally involved in? If you have specifics on this incident, would you let me have them either by PPRuNe message or email, please? Thank you.

Sharky says its true and will fight anyone who says otherwise!

Re: MPN11 and Ninthace. Being careful of my wording, we have several sources who were, they claim, directly involved in this matter (and from what they've said which tallies with what others have said, we believe they were involved). Of the 2 main ones, one is older, was more involved, and of a higher rank than the other, hence "senior". Neither wishes to be publicly identified, though.

I have no knowledge of this specific event, but in case of explaining a mach 2 target at 40k with a Harrier I'd google SR-71. Though it would be a bit slow and a tad low for the Blackbird :}

Thank you. I fully understand the need for PERSEC, and will of course press this no further.

About forty years ago I was told a tale by a military radar controller about “fast movers”. He was told to anticipate one and to disregard it. He was very much used to seeing high speed military aircraft pass across his radar screen and therefore wasn’t too surprised by the message.

However, in this case, he WAS surprised to see how fast the object in question passed across his screen. It appeared as just three “blips”, then was gone. He’d never seen anything moving anywhere near as fast as that before. But it was obviously known to the hierarchy.

Mallet Blow 90/2
 

Hello.

Some new info has come to light that might be of interest/use.

As we know, the MoD has always denied having Harriers in Scotland at the time/day when the Calvine photo was allegedly taken. They might well be telling the truth, or they might be being a little pedantic due to official secrecy and the nature of parliamentary answers, e.g.

Q: "Can the Minister please say whether the RAF had Harriers near Calvine at 9pm on 4th August 1990?"
A: "No, we didn't." (Unsaid: We had Harriers near Calvine at 8.55pm, but you didn't ask that.)

Anyway, according to Hansard, between 30th July and 3rd August 1990 (the day before the Calvine sighting allegedly occurred), the low-flying exercise Mallet Blow 90/2 was undertaken in northern England and the Borders region of Scotland (which doesn't include Calvine, but it's reasonably close).
In the 18 Mallet Blow exercises from Mallet Blow 84/1 to Mallet Blow 89/2, Harriers were involved in every instance.
In Mallet Blow 89/2, a total of 193 Tornadoes, Jaguars, Harriers, F-111s, F-16s, and F-18s took part, so it was quite large.
And in Mallet Blow 90/1, aircraft flew from the following bases:

RAF Brize Norton
RAF Coltishall
RAF Coningsby
RAF Cottesmore
RAF Honington
RAF Leeming
RAF Leuchars
RAF Linton-on-Ouse
RAF Marham
RAF Waddington
RAF Wattisham
RAF Wittering
A & AEE Boscombe Down
RAF Alconbury
RAF Bentwaters
RAF Lakenheath
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Bruggen
RAF Laarbruch
331W
RAF Gutersloh
GAF Büchel
GAF Bremgarten
GAF Leck
GAF Norvenich
NAEWF Geilenkirchen

A few thoughts/queries:

Q1. Do any old hands hence recall Mallet Blow 90/2 and the involvement of any Harriers, please?
Q2. During Mallet Blow exercises up to 90/2, night flying wasn't apparently permitted (11pm to 7am), and scheduled flying seemed to end 30 minutes after sunset. (Sunset on 4.8.1990 in Calvine was at 21:22, so in practical terms, was there enough time for a Harrier or two to be in the air at 9pm over Calvine and fly back to a nearby base by 21:52?)
Q3. If Mallet Blow 90/2 ended on Friday 3rd August 1990, might there have been any reason for a Harrier or two to just stay over in southern Scotland or northern England (at a base other than their home squadron base), and hence be in the air on Saturday 4th August?
Q4. Were exercises like Mallet Blow ever extended for 24 hours or into a weekend for any reason (bad weather, logistics, more practice requested)?

Thank you.

This is a bit embarrassing, and will be a gift to our RN friends but it is hard to overstate how unusual fast jet weekend flying was then!
( Nimrods, yes, yes I know)

I’m sure that Harriers took part in that Mallet Blow.
I very much doubt that it was extended into a weekend.
Mallet Blow areas did not extend as far North as Calvine but a Harrier COULD have detached to Calvine but would have had to land at Leuchars / Lossiemouth thereby attracting attention.

In short, I don’t think this avenue of inquiry will help much.

Much appreciated, Timelord. Cheers

Hi! What parts of the UK the man saw that radar blimps? Was it regular route or unspecified or random one?
forty years gives it back to the 80's... was it just happening at the time or later as well?

Hi Matthew,

I did send you a private message on here, check this out, please.

Matthew, I used to shoot Mallet Blow for RAF Strilke Command, High Wycombe for years.
I have no photographic records of what aircraft were involved sadly.
They gave me 12 numbered rolls of B/W on arrival and I had to return 12 rolls at the end of each day.
Flying normally finished prior to sundown.
I never shot anything at weekends or was ever asked too.
I have no memory of any Harriers,which are very distinctive, but it was a long time ago.

Sorry !

El Grifo

Thanks, gents. All info is very much appreciated.

Were not RAF Harriers eliminated from the the investigation by Ufologists following examination of the relevant ORBs at Kew?
https://www.uapmedia.uk/articles/calvineupdate

It was "blips", not blimps. ;)

I assumed it occurred in W.Germany, at least that is where the controller told the story. It would have been somewhere between early 1981 to late 1983. I don't have any more detail because I didn't ask for any and in those days most things military were on a "need to know" basis.

But it does make me realise that certain unusual, very high performance aerial objects that might be otherwise described as "UFOs" were actually known about, at least by part of the military.

Hi Ninthace. To my (admittedly imperfect) knowledge, the ORBs of Sqns 1, 3 and 4 don't show anything, nor do the Sea Harrier ORBs, but SAOEU is as yet unaccounted for.

Re: 233 OCU, due to the invasion of Kuwait, the ORBs mention many aircraft movements to and from OCU for Operation Granby prep, with Wittering mentioned. No smoking gun, though, date-wise as yet.

Iraq did not invade Kuwait until 2 Aug 90, Granby was a long way off. I would not even bother to pursue that idea

One of the military controllers at Northern Radar pointed out an SR71 to me one day in 1973. It would travel at 'normal' speed ie about 500kt then stop, then repeat. This was because they would climb vertically several times on departure and the blip stopping meant one of these vertical climbs (raw radar not MTI equipped.)
The same controller (same year) also pointed out a Phantom which was positioning to Leuchars fromm Coningsby. It headed up the Wash then turned north and the blips suddenly got wider and wider spaced as it went supersonic. I was told later they did brakes off to touchdown in 7 minutes.
Years later at Farnborough (late '90s) I often watched aircraft indicating FL660 appear from somewhere off the south coast heading just east of north and crossing high over Heathrow; I presume these were U2s.

Of course the "high performance", high speed object could just be space debris or items being recovered from orbit which happened from 71-86

What speed they were? Was it routine events?

Can we rule out possibility of it being just the SR-71?

How would we do that?

By a speed on the radar... I guess the only possibility.

Hunters…
 

Sorry, late to the party here, but if the aircraft was a Hunter, nobody has mentioned FRADU Hunters from Yeovilton (that I’ve seen in this thread). I’ve definitely seen these fly at weekends during exercises. Probably not important, but just thought I’d throw it into the mix!

After 40 years? :confused: