Russian Sub hit Towed Array 2020
 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...onar-dctz96xj5

Russian submarine collides with British warship’s sonar

A Russian submarine collided with a British warship’s sonar during a cat-and-mouse game in the North Atlantic, forcing the Royal Navy to abort its mission.

Television footage captures the moment crew onboard HMS Northumberland sound the alarm, shouting “what the hell was that”, “****”, “what the f*** have I just hit” as the boat crashes into its towed array sonar.

Towed array sonar uses hundreds of microphones attached to a cable, trailing behind a submarine, or in this particular case, a Type 23 frigate. The technology is designed to detect and track quiet submarines and is positioned hundreds of metres away from the ship.

HMS Northumberland was on a 48-hour hunt to find the Russian submarine in late 2020 amid concerns it could try and tap into undersea cables essential for communication and the internet.

It is believed to be the first time such an incident has been documented and made public.

Channel 5 documented the mission for its series Warship: Life At Sea, during which the crew launched a Merlin helicopter to try and find the submarine.

The footage shows the moment they spot what is believed to be a Russian submarine appearing above the surface of the water, an extremely rare event. Its periscope and a communication mast can be seen above the water level.

At one point during the mission Commander Thom Hobbs, the warship’s captain, says: “We are very close to the submarine — we are probably parallel. If they were on the surface we would definitely see faces.”

Shortly afterwards the Russian submarine appears to turn sharply in what is described by those onboard as an “aggressive move” and collides with the towed array sonar, which is the diameter of a fist.

At the time, it is believed the Russian submarine knew that HMS Northumberland was there.

Navy sources told The Times that finding the towed array sonar in the sea would have been like finding a “needle in a haystack” and said the collision must have been an accident.

The sonar, which was recovered in its entirety, was damaged to such an extent that the ship had to return to port and the sonar had to be replaced. The towed array sonar is believed to cost about £20million.

Navy sources believe the Russian submarine would also have likely been damaged in the incident.

Commander Ryan Ramsey, a former naval officer who was captain of hunter killer submarine HMS Turbulent, said that the collision was almost certainly accidental.

He said the interaction “shows the complexity and risk involved with the art of anti-submarine warfare”. He added: “What can start as in control can rapidly escalate, particularly against a capable adversary such as the Russian submarine force.”

Ramsey added that the Russian submarine would have probably been a Sierra, Akula or Yasen attack submarine, as these operate at the same depth as the frigate’s towed array.

Tom Sharpe, a former Royal Navy Commander who drove anti-submarine warfare frigate HMS St Albans, said: “The Russian threat to our undersea communications is real, on our doorstep and ever increasing. It’s hard to overstate the effect a major disruption of it would cause. Detecting and deterring Russian submarines that are doing this is a team effort that involves allies, aircraft, ships, submarines and sensors.”

He added: “Ship and submarine detection is not the exact science depicted in the movies. In other words, this could have been an accident — a close pass gone wrong. It could also have been deliberate.”

Ministry of Defence spokesman confirmed the incident, saying: “In late 2020 a Russian submarine being tracked by HMS Northumberland came into contact with her towed array sonar. The Royal Navy regularly tracks foreign ships and submarines in order to ensure the defence of the United Kingdom.”

Warship: Life At Sea continues Monday at 9pm on Channel 5.

Could it have been an attempt to grab the array?

Thats the only time a type 23 will ever get a CERTSUB

Just got to hope the sonar equipment has some quick auto mute or the tech manning it likely had his/her eardrums meet in the middle!

"Could it have been an attempt to grab the array?"

Doubt it - they stole one a few years back in a Spanish or Portuguese harbour IIRC

I was not aware of that. Any details?

Didn't HMS Conqueror steal a Russian towed array many years ago, after the Falklands War?
I seem to remember reading that a few years ago.

:confused:

JAS

When I was in Coastal Command I remember a big Naval exercise in the North Sea when a new type of Sonar Buoy was dropped by a Shackleton and picked up by a Russian submarine not long after the buoy entered the water.

Another report indicates that the Type 23's helo had spotted the sub's periscope shortly before impact. Seems odd the Type 23 would allow the sub to collide with the towed array as the Type 23 has a considerable speed and maneuverability advantage over a sub at periscope depth.

Was told the the Norwegians put a destructive charge in their sonobuoys, thus if one was recovered' by a certain state, they went "pop".

I believe the towed array takes away a lot of that advantage as for it to work you have to go at relatively slow speed and stay on a steady course. It's also quite a way behind the ship so any alteration of course would probably be too late to have an affect. Speeding up might work but might just damage the array.

So can we assume then that their towed array isn’t particularly effective in the mode for which it was designed however does work in a non conventional way when it actually comes into physical contact with a submarine.

perhaps they need to do away with sonar part and deploy a series of lines behind them with touch sensors instead.

The array is hundreds of metres long, hanging on an even longer tow cable, so not really something you can easily manouevre out of the way of an imminent collision.

You’ve obviously not heard of the tactic of laying a line of balloons with magnets attached. When the sub gets close the magnets are drawn to the sub and you simply follow the balloons.

So the array was deployed but did not 'see' the sub ? Did the Sub not detect the ship either ? Both seem unlikely

I wonder if Russians, fed up with being tracked around the Atlantic, decided to do a bit of vandalism to see what it takes to send an anti sub vessel home. Not a lot it seems

In all likelihood the sub would be well aware of the ship but may not have known about the silent towed array when it elected to pass astern of the Northumberland. From my brief brush with these things, the stern arc is an area of weakness for passive sonar on both ships and submarines on account of the spinning bits, hence the need to clear stern arcs from time to time to make sure you are not being followed . Perhaps the submarine was trying to move into the trail?

I can't find a link t the Russian steal - IIRC the RN had parked up for the night and the next morning discovered the kit had disappeared overnight - and a Russian freighter had left about dawn

Vodka and medals all round I'd guess...................

The technology is similar to the seismic boats used in oil exploration - they often stream cables 2-3 km long - and maybe 6-8 at a time

In the second pic the streamers are the white feathered marks on the left - the gun arrays are nearer the ship

and they are a real sod to keep straight , and you don't turn any sharp corners either.............

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....fe415d05e0.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....113c0c2555.jpg

Oh! Look....

Jack

It does sort of puzzle me that [despite the unit cost] there wasn't a full spare or enough bits 'n' tiffs on board to diagnose & repair any damage rather than (as was reported) have to head for the coast once more for a complete new one.
Doesn't really seem to me to demonstrate resilience for extended operation in austere locations......

The unit cost is the whole system, including winches and inboard processors. The array itself is only a smallish part of the cost.

There simply isn't room to carry a spare - let alone move it around to the winch compartment to fit it.

Seems a fairly major oversight to me if the only option is to scuttle off back to base for a new one whilst there's even a remote chance of having to operate this kit at risk of damage somewhere in the southern reaches of the Atlantic, northern/western parts of the Pacific or areas of the Indian Ocean. Then again, my views are coloured by having to have a minimum of four back up plans for things going wrong in all field operations despite this plug & play/nothing ever breaks down world in which we live.....

Should anyone be interested in BAE, General Dynamics or the like, I have a cunning idea for a new Naval "toy" for submarines to defeat towed array sonar.


It feels good to be back on PPrune after 16 months.

Defeating a trailing submarine is easy.
Spray the wake with a biodegradable oil dyed green.
Submarine pops up attack scope for a quick shufti. Oil coats scope with oil so all the skipper sees is green.
Skipper smacks ship control officer round the back of the head and demands periscope depth
Ship control officer knows better than to argue and brings the boat up a bit more.
Skipper has another peek, still green, smack round head, repeat.
Eventually the submarine gets high enough for the trailed ship to shoot it down with a/a fire or missile.

I leave the details to you, my cut is 50%.

Does an aircraft carry a spare radar, engine or wing? Or an infanteer a spare leg?

You can fly a spare reel out to theatre and fit there if necessary. What you can't do is manhandle a couple of tonnes / several cubic metres of cable and array inside a ship.

Ninthace That was the purpose of the guns in the nose of the Shackleton

Do you know, I always wondered. I mean what else could it catch up to?

The Vipers were added to enable us to keep up with the faster submarines.

"There simply isn't room to carry a spare - let alone move it around to the winch compartment to fit it."

These aren't just lengths of cable - the hydrophones are pretty delicate electronic instruments in themselves and the wiring......... isn't very robust. You have to be very careful how you handle it - the vessels were never designed to carry a spare reel which would probably take up a space the size of a helicopter hanger.

Ssshhh! Their real use is the undersea chemtrail dispenser!

I bet deploying a towed array is almost as much fun as unravelling Christmas tree lights.

For clarity [& speaking as someone used to the type of kit used for oil & gas surveys shown in the ramform pic]- I never meant the dumb [cable, towing wire etc.] part of the array but the active & semi-active parts like the connectors, sensor heads & other "interesting bits" that you could use to effect a field repair.

I don't think I would have wanted to be a submariner but I admire their guts! There are some interesting insights here:-

TBH, I always found that fighter pilots and submariners got on very well. I guess it was something to do with the fact that both operate in peacetime with much the same hazards as they would have in wartime. Get it wrong and there are no second chances.

Mog

Ignoring the tow cable, and the connecting cable, the working part of the array is huge. It also does not like being bent round sharp corners, which is why the reel is large diameter. You might manage to lay it out round the upper deck, if you had a hundred or so spare sailors and were not worried about damaging it further.à

Even if you could hand the array you then have to get at a few hydrophones or whatever halfway down a drain pipe sized tube several hundred meters long , filled with special goo. After you are finished you need to refill the tube with goo ( no bubbles allowed) and reseal it so it stays watertight at great depth. All this is difficult enough in a factory, near impossible on a warship.

Finally you have to get your "mended" array back in the water without breaking it again. After that you can see if it now works.

The skipper of the T23 no doubt asked his WEO for options and then did the only practical thing and went home for a new array.

N

Supposedly the relevant episode of 'Warship - life at sea' is on Channel 5 at 9 tonight

Bengo & Donkey are correct - these are not bits of kit you can repair at sea

Did I miss this incident? It looks like it'll be on next week, not last night. That's good spin from Ch5 to make us watch more than one episode!