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Trim Stab - inarguable summary ! :D
Why we Brits should expect the French to take action on our behalf, and for our sole benefit, is quite beyond me. Whingeing about other nations' lack of action for our benefit, when the Buffoon and his mindless supporters have 'taken back control', is beyond 'having cake and eating it' - it's just juvenile tantrums ... unsurprising, of course ! When Patel is the 'moving force' for action and the Immigration Minister is Foster, one's expectations should be low. For any not familiar, Foster was one of the Tweedle-Dum - Tweedle-Dee pair who regularly inhabited the front bench furthest from the Speaker and leapt smartly to their feet, constantly, to make Government adoring interventions. The effort has borne fruit for Foster, as well, possibly, as producing well-honed leg muscles !!:bored: |
Originally Posted by charliegolf
(Post 11148655)
Trim Stab, all clear. But sticking a knife in those dinghies comes with no redress against the authorities for all the reasons you gave. Every boat I've seen is grossly overloaded. that's a safety reason to not allow departure. The French don't want to keep them there.
The French police don't have the right to damage people's property without reason. They are allowed to slash the tents of illegal campers if they have been warned. But they can't just go around vandalising boats... People in France are getting really fed up with the UK blaming them for a problem that is entirely created by UK, and which the French police have few powers to stop,and which is costing French taxpayer a lot of money (UK is not covering all the costs despite what you might read in UK press). |
Originally Posted by Herod
(Post 11148651)
Time the UK had another think about ID cards? Many people have ID cards for where they work, the military, NHS local government etc. As a 74 year-old volunteer, I have photo ID for my position. What is the problem?
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
(Post 11148679)
How exactly would ID cards prevent any of what is currently going on in the Channel?
In UK, people can easily live in the black economy - some estimates are that there are up to a million people in UK lliving illegally, working in the black economy (not paying tax or NI contributions) but lowering hourly wages for legal workers, and costing taxpayer money when they get ill and taken to hospital, or commit crime and are taken to prison. You just can't do it so easily in France or elsewhere in EU, because we have to have ID cards. No ID means no bank account, no phone contract, no healthcare, no chance of legally working, no chance of legally renting. |
ID cards have famously halted all illegal immigration into the EU, US, etc. Can see no problem with them working in the UK also.
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Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
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Originally Posted by melmothtw
(Post 11148687)
ID cards have famously halted all illegal immigration into the EU, US, etc. Can see no problem with them working in the UK also.
There is a movement in France - the "Gilet Noires" - of mostly francophone African illegal migrants who are demanding ID cards. They obviously don't get a lot of sympathy from French public or authorities. So a lot of them are trying to get to UK because they can easily work illegally in UK. Personally I like having to carry my ID card in France. I don't see why people in UK are so opposed to them. If you are law abiding, they are useful. |
Originally Posted by Trim Stab
(Post 11148702)
Personally I like having to carry my ID card in France. I don't see why people in UK are so opposed to them. If you are law abiding, they are useful.
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Originally Posted by clareprop
(Post 11148696)
Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
From evidence, the only effective reduction in drug-running, comes from making drug use legal. So ......... ? |
An interesting suggestion in the letters page of today's Times. Any refugee or asylum seeker who provides the French authorities with information about the smuggler, that leads to a successful prosecution, would be granted permission to enter the UK.
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We've seen many pictures of French police watching the boat launches, particularly the front-page one of two policemen using their VW headlights to floodlight a large RIB launch by an estimated 45/50 athletic young men (oops, sorry I meant children). Many years back I saw a handful of police trying to contain 2000 rioters. It didn't end well, as most of the personnel who served in Northern Ireland can tell you.
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Originally Posted by clareprop
(Post 11148696)
Concentrating on 'policing' the illegal immigrants seems like a complete waste of time. It seems to me the focus should be on the gangs who arrange the crossings. Treat them like organised drug runners and enemies of the state and set up a joint military force with Belgium, Netherlands, France and Italy - and eradicate them. No gangs, no crossings.
Then there is the issue that many of the groups are actually self financing. No. the gangs and the boats are a symptom, not the disease. Eliminate the reasons for the migration, not the means. |
Originally Posted by Geriaviator
(Post 11148717)
We've seen many pictures of French police watching the boat launches, particularly the front-page one of two policemen using their VW headlights to floodlight a large RIB launch by an estimated 45/50 athletic young men (oops, sorry I meant children). Many years back I saw a handful of police trying to contain 2000 rioters. It didn't end well, as most of the personnel who served in Northern Ireland can tell you.
Equally, we have also seen pictures of the UK authorities helping the refugees ashore in the UK. Why are you not demanding they be thrown back in the ocean? |
Originally Posted by treadigraph
(Post 11148707)
a UK i/d card could be an asset but some people squeal in outrage whenever it is suggested. No idea why, I'd like one.
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Ninthace
Perhaps a grossly overloaded vessel? The French are not keen on wasting money on rescues, fair enough. Again long out of touch but I recall they charged for helo rescue of silly skiers and S&R for downed light aircraft. But my point is that two men are not going to stop a crowd of 50 who don't want to be stopped. |
Originally Posted by Geriaviator
(Post 11148726)
Ninthace
Perhaps a grossly overloaded vessel? The French are not keen on wasting money on rescues, fair enough. Again long out of touch but I recall they charged for helo rescue of silly skiers and S&R for downed light aircraft. But my point is that two men are not going to stop a crowd of 50 who don't want to be stopped. |
I’m not sure it’s been mentioned in the UK press but there’s been some talk for some time on this side of the water that the smugglers have become very adept at trying to saturate the “defenses” at one or two points along the beaches in an attempt to reduce the ability of the Flics to interfere with operations….politico is carrying this story ATM
The people smugglers have become better organized, said Magnin, with several boats often setting off at the same time in operations that are “necessarily coordinated.” The crossings have also continued later into the year, whereas they used to pause during the winter months. The French police patrols on the beach have grown in response, from less than 200 to 800 deployed officers on average daily, according to Laroye, drawing on more and more inland resources https://www.politico.eu/article/peop...nel-migration/ |
Originally Posted by Trim Stab
(Post 11148671)
They would indeed - in theory - be a cheap solution. The problem is structural. Frontex puts out competitive tenders for these sorts of operations in EU (not just handed out to tory MPs mates like in UK). It is very difficult for private companies to make money out of bidding for Frontex operations. There is a big capital cost fo acquiring and running a fleet of such aircraft, and then the contract is typically of short terms and is tendered out again at the end of the contract. Si there is no stability for private companies offering ISR aircraft, and margins are tiny. Also, Frontex is an EU operation to prevent people entering EU - not leaving - so really this is not a priority for Frontex.
So it comes back to UK government paying for them. The French would likely insist that they are based in France if they are patrolling the French coastline, and subject to French regulations, and EASA regulated and EASA AOC. Rather unlikely that the UK government would agree to set up a French company to run such an operation... So take them on in the RAF / Army as we used to operate the islanders, I am sure they would be a cheaper solution than the A400 use and would be a cheap viable platform to use elsewhere, aiding police searches, maritime and on shore surveillance. |
The UK Coast Guard has 4 fixed wing assets 3xCessna F406 and 1xCessna 404, I have seen at least one of these being used to patrol the Straits of Dover in the past.
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Some in safety better than arbitrary number with casualties
Some are always going to make it. Most are not going to be sent back. If we showed willing by setting up an immigration/asylum centre in France and agreed to take "N" where "N" is somewhat less than the number making it anyway, then I think the EU would accept deportations of those who turn up in England without asylum papers.
Better than impotent rage, n'est ce pas? |
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