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US Navy Very Large Drone
Note the mission of operating off an aircraft carrier.
Boeing's MQ-25 is readyhttps://www.boeing.com/resources/boe..._1_310x215.jpg Boeing is bringing the future of unmanned aircraft carrier aviation to the U.S. Navy with its MQ-25. An unmanned aircraft system designed for the U.S. Navy mission, it will provide the needed robust refueling capability thereby extending the combat range of deployed Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Boeing EA-18G Growler, and Lockheed Martin F-35C fighters. Our aircraft is ready for the mission, the flight deck and the U.S. Navy. Boeing has been delivering carrier aircraft to the Navy for more than 90 years – we know the flight deck. Our MQ-25 brings the right combination of refueling, autonomy, and seamless carrier deck integration to deliver a solution that meets the U.S. Navy’s goals: put a low-cost unmanned aerial refueling aircraft on the flight deck as soon as possible. Boeing’s MQ-25 is ready. by Staff Writers San Diego CA (SPX) Apr 23, 2019http://www.spxdaily.com/images-hg/un...tingray-hg.jpg File image of a MQ-25 Stingray variant. Cubic Corporation reports its Cubic Mission Solutions (CMS) business division has been awarded a contract by The Boeing Company to supply its Wideband Satellite Communications (SATCOM) modem system and Line-of-Sight (LOS) Common Data Link (CDL) system for the MQ-25 unmanned aerial refueling program."Our resilient, wideband communication solution will enable the MQ-25 to conduct its missions safely and securely," said Mike Twyman, president of Cubic Mission Solutions. "We are thrilled to continue our support of Boeing's innovative design for this critical platform."The MQ-25 is the U.S. Navy's first operational carrier-based unmanned aircraft and is designed to provide a much-needed refueling capability. The contract supports Boeing's engineering and manufacturing development program to provide four MQ-25 aircraft to the U.S. Navy for initial operational capability by 2024."The MQ-25 program is vital because it will help the U.S. Navy extend the range of the carrier air wing, and Boeing and our industry team is all-in on delivering this capability," said Dave Bujold, Boeing's MQ-25 program director. "The work we're doing is also foundational for the future of Boeing - where we're building autonomous systems from seabed to space."This latest contract will help support more than 30 jobs for Cubic, which is a data link supplier to a range of U.S. Navy defense programs. |
These Unmanned Aircraft are operating from carriers, air to air refueling - two of the most difficult piloting tasks, and will lead the way to reduced manning and eventually autonomous passenger aircraft. That is if they are not beaten to it by Urban Air Mobility autonomous aircraft from
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Originally Posted by Ian W
(Post 10456376)
These Unmanned Aircraft are operating from carriers, air to air refueling - two of the most difficult piloting tasks, and will lead the way to reduced manning and eventually autonomous passenger aircraft. That is if they are not beaten to it by Urban Air Mobility autonomous aircraft from Uber Elevate
Raytheon pitches USAF on F-35A auto-landing system
After successfully integrating its Joint Precision Approach and Landing System (JPALS) on F-35B fighters and a growing number of US Navy aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships, Raytheon is pitching a modified version of the system to the US Air Force for auto-landing F-35A aircraft at expeditionary airfields. The company is in talks with the USAF on how exactly the service would like a portable system configured to automatically land the Lockheed Martin F-35A on remote airfields without traditional instrument landing systems. Such airfields may have difficult approaches due to surrounding mountains, bad weather or potential enemy fire. Raytheon says it is building a Humvee portable version of JPALS which could be transported to expeditionary air bases aboard a C-130J transport and set up in 60 to 90 minutes. The system would be able to manage 50 different aircraft making different approaches within a radius of 20nm. JPALS is a GPS-guided system that is secured with an anti-spoofing, anti-jamming data link. The program is already uploaded onto all versions of the F-35. Raytheon is aiming to add it to legacy aircraft as well, though the company hasn’t yet secured any contracts to do so. Initially designed to help a pilot land on an aircraft carrier in poor visibility or after long, tiring flights, the auto-landing system can put down an aircraft in a 20cm by 20cm box, says Raytheon. “It was so precise that when they were testing it that they were having to move around the touchdown point on the aircraft carrier because the deck was getting worn out by the tail hook hitting the same spot,” says Brooks Cleveland, Raytheon’s senior aviation advisor for precision landing systems. |
Boeing has been delivering carrier aircraft to the Navy for more than 90 years – we know the flight deck. |
You don’t think it’s a bit harder to land on a moving carrier than a fixed runway? It will be doing 10 to 30 knots speeds compounded with the deck heaving up and down and even rolling. I suspect that requires data links and software a order of magnitude more complex than a autoland to a fixed point. |
Originally Posted by Sailvi767
(Post 10456864)
You don’t think it’s a bit harder to land on a moving carrier than a fixed runway? It will be doing 10 to 30 knots speeds compounded with the deck heaving up and down and even tolling. I suspect that requires data links and software a order of magnitude more complex than a autoland to a fixed point. |
Boeing has been delivering carrier aircraft to the Navy for more than 90 years – we know the flight deck. Really???? https://www.militaryfactory.com/airc...rcraft_id=1137 |
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That's quite a large drone
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Originally Posted by Bloggs
Boeing has been delivering carrier aircraft to the Navy for more than 90 years – we know the flight deck. |
US Navy Boeing F2Bs on board USS Saratoga circa 1928:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....49eba0fb52.jpg https://photobucket.com/gallery/user...Li5qcGc=/?ref= |
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10457037)
No, not really...
current “knowing the deck” is nearly exclusively due to the McDonnel Douglass acquisition. With a long line of F-18, F-4, A-4, early jets, WWII props, etc. |
Any public figures on how much fuel it can offload? |
Sshhh! Don’t tell BEagle as AAR Pilots have just been automated. Just like Navigators and Air Engineers have been over the past 10-15 years. |
Seems strange that the stealthy looking thing is the tanker not the striker! |
Originally Posted by ironbutt57
(Post 10456880)
the Navy has had ACLS Automatic Carrier Landing System) in ops for decades
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10456817)
Boeing has been delivering carrier aircraft to the Navy for more than 90 years – we know the flight deck. Really????
And that completely ignores the countless Douglas carrier aircraft that were built starting in the 1930s. So between heritage Boeing, Douglas, and McDonnell (all of which are now Boeing), Boeing aircraft have been predominant aboard USN carriers from the very beginning of carrier aviation till the present. |
Originally Posted by orca
(Post 10457484)
Seems strange that the stealthy looking thing is the tanker not the striker! |
Stop smoking that stuff, Ken. All those Boeing F thingees were props and stopped flying over 70 years ago.
Just because you buy out a competitor only a spiv would call them "your" aeroplanes. You didn't design them, you didn't build them and you can't claim they're yours. Boeing Fake News. |
Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10461254)
Stop smoking that stuff, Ken. All those Boeing F thingees were props and stopped flying over 70 years ago.
Just because you buy out a competitor only a spiv would call them "your" aeroplanes. You didn't design them, you didn't build them and you can't claim they're yours. Boeing Fake News. Now, if I were to include Douglas, then the first Boeing USN carrier aircraft was the Douglas DT, which flew 98 years ago. And USN's first twin engine carrier aircraft, the Douglas T2D, flew 92 years ago. Perhaps taking a deep breath before reading and posting would help your mood. Good luck with that. |
Ken, not accusing you of being a spiv, sorry if it came across that way. I was just pointing out that apart from those prop jobs over 80 years ago, Boeing has effectively not designed or built anything that has gone onto a carrier deck until this drone thing. No company with any common decency would claim that the A4, F4, F18 (and others like the F15, C-17) are "Boeings". I walk the halls of a Boeing sim centre and it just is so corny seeing posters of all these aeroplanes over the decades built by others but now claimed to be "Boeings". It really does demean the company, in my eyes.
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Originally Posted by Capn Bloggs
(Post 10461295)
...No company with any common decency would claim that the A4, F4, F18 (and others like the F15, C-17) are "Boeings". I walk the halls of a Boeing sim centre and it just is so corny seeing posters of all these aeroplanes over the decades built by others but now claimed to be "Boeings". It really does demean the company, in my eyes.
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Originally Posted by hunterboy
(Post 10457401)
Any public figures on how much fuel it can offload? The Navy's goal for the aircraft is to be able to deliver 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) of fuel total to 4 to 6 airplanes at a range of 500 nmi (580 mi; 930 km). Don't know if the delivered product meets or exceeds the above. |
Alert 5 » USN?s update on MQ-25A program - Military Aviation News USN’s update on MQ-25A program The U.S. Navy published an update on the MQ-25A program on its Tester newsletter a few hours ago but the page is now offline. We managed to download screenshots of the article before the link went dead. According to the article, second round testing of the Unmanned Carrier Aircraft (UCA) Mission Control Station (UMCS) “is planned for late fiscal year 2019 where the control station will be connected to Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command labs around the country to test the UMCS interaction with the networks necessary to control the MQ-25A wherever it may operate.” The prototype is still on schedule to make its maiden flight this year and will reach VX-23 “in late 2021 to support an aggressive three-year test program to enable a 2024 Initial Operating Capability.” https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3373cab36.jpeg |
dctPub,
You said that: "There is no difference to the UAV whether it has to land on a carrier deck or wide runway. Also flying a racetrack pattern doesn't seem particularly difficult and all aircraft flying today can do it. Not saying you are wrong about the unmanned bit but it's just odd that you decided to qualify the refuelling and landing on carrier as a technological breakthrough in unmanned flying'. I might be able to help a little here, as I have some experience in development of aircraft for carrier ops. There are very substantial difference between the way that air vehicles land on a land runway and the way they land on a carrier deck for an arrested landing. They need to carry out a carrier approach and landing at lower speeds (to stay within the limits of the carrier arresting gear and the deck area available to stop). They also need to arrive at the deck in a precise manner so as to reliably and repeatably engage the arresting wires. These drive specific aircraft design characteristics, of which a few are:
So yes, I'd characterise getting a large UAV on to and off a carrier flight deck safely and reliably (which they haven't quite done yet, but seem to be moving well towards) is a bit of a breakthrough. You might differ, and that's fine - this is a discussion forum. Anyway, I hope this helps. Best regards as ever to all those doing the hard work in the real world, Engines |
Apparently the first UAV crews are going through the MQ-25A Stingray deck proficiency training now, a Captain Troy Tempest and his Nav/Weapons Operator Lieutenant George Lee Sheridan, callsign "Phones."
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Engines,
The X47B both launched from and landed on a carrier deck underway in 2013. |
unmanned_droid,
Thanks for coming back. Yes, I was aware of the X-47B stuff back in 2013. I apologise if I gave the impression that the team hadn't demonstrated launch and recoveries from the deck - but there is a big difference between doing this with an 'X plane' (which is basically a flying shape) under experimental test conditions (which is what they did in 2013) and getting an operationally effective aircraft (at representative weights) to carry out launch and recovery enough times under all the various conditions to be able to say that it's a sufficiently safe and reliable evolution that the USN can incorporate into their operational plans. The fact that it's taken this long indicates (at least in my view) how hard it has been for the team to 'cross the t's and dot the i's'. By the way, this shouldn't be taken as any form of criticism. Getting from initial demonstrations to operational clearance is a long and tough process, and the team behind the MQ-25 deserve to be congratulated. My main point was to try to explain why landing a UAV on a carrier is not at all like landing on a land runway. Again, my apologies if I didn't make that clear. Best Regards as ever to all those dotting the i's and crossing the t's, Engines |
I take it this thing is flown by a crew onto the ships from some control station? Where are the crews, onboard ship? I ask because in rough seas it must be interesting as you will I take it be flying a visual approach to a ship while your body is sensing the roll and pitch not of the aircraft, but that of the ship. if it is auto land I wonder how the system copes with the sudden and variable altitude change as it passes over the end of the ship. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10558233)
I take it this thing is flown by a crew onto the ships from some control station? Where are the crews, onboard ship? I ask because in rough seas it must be interesting as you will I take it be flying a visual approach to a ship while your body is sensing the roll and pitch not of the aircraft, but that of the ship. if it is auto land I wonder how the system copes with the sudden and variable altitude change as it passes over the end of the ship. I think the approach and landing is automatic. I.e. no person in the loop, except maybe a LSO type has a go-around switch. To add, there is an operational carrier auto-land system in use (Super Hornets). |
Originally Posted by Engines
(Post 10558172)
unmanned_droid,
Thanks for coming back. Yes, I was aware of the X-47B stuff back in 2013. I apologise if I gave the impression that the team hadn't demonstrated launch and recoveries from the deck - but there is a big difference between doing this with an 'X plane' (which is basically a flying shape) under experimental test conditions (which is what they did in 2013) and getting an operationally effective aircraft (at representative weights) to carry out launch and recovery enough times under all the various conditions to be able to say that it's a sufficiently safe and reliable evolution that the USN can incorporate into their operational plans. The fact that it's taken this long indicates (at least in my view) how hard it has been for the team to 'cross the t's and dot the i's'. By the way, this shouldn't be taken as any form of criticism. Getting from initial demonstrations to operational clearance is a long and tough process, and the team behind the MQ-25 deserve to be congratulated. My main point was to try to explain why landing a UAV on a carrier is not at all like landing on a land runway. Again, my apologies if I didn't make that clear. Best Regards as ever to all those dotting the i's and crossing the t's, Engines Since the X-47B was an NG product, I imagine the cross fertilisation in the airframe and systems is limited to mostly people job swapping besides specifications laid out in the tender. Of course, much learning will have been captured by the operator during trials which will be being applied here, as I'm sure you know. Always enjoy your posts. UD |
Unmanned,
Thanks for coming back. Disagreements are excellent, as they promote discussion, and I do think that the MQ-25 team are nearly there. As a somewhat gnarly old engineer, I just know that the last 5% of any programme can be a real bear to close out. The DoD OT&E report will be the key document. Again, BZ to the MQ-25 team for what they've already achieved. I would gently argue that the X-47B was pretty much a flying shape, and I'd expect that there has been very substantial redesign of the internal structure and systems to get to the MQ-25. But that doesn't diminish the value of an 'X' programme at all. In my experience, in the US 'X' means 'X'. Nutloose raised a very good point about the sudden change in altitude as the air vehicle passes over the end of the ship. I'd suspect that the answer is that the landing guidance system (very probably JPALS) is using the flight deck at the point of engaging the wires as the reference 'zero altitude' for the approach, and not the sea. Anyone out there with better knowledge? Best regards as ever to those clever Navair engineers at Pax River, Engines |
Well, the MQ25 is an entirely different product to the X-47B so, yes, I imagine there is quite a lot of design differences! :)
Googling JPALS gives the following slides: PMA-213 JPALS | HTii "While JPALS provides enhanced capability to existing aircraft, it is a critical component of the JSF’s all-weather capability and the only currently envisioned way to operate large unmanned aircraft from ships at sea." EMALS & JPALS for the JSF - General F-35 Forum End of page 2 has a slide with JPALS 'success' condition That success box will probably be moving with the ship rotations so the course correction is continually recalculated. |
Originally Posted by KenV
(Post 10461347)
From Wiki:
The Navy's goal for the aircraft is to be able to deliver 15,000 lb (6,800 kg) of fuel total to 4 to 6 airplanes at a range of 500 nmi (580 mi; 930 km). Surely no-one is going to risk AAR returning to the ship without any diversions, so I suppose this drone will be used to refuel missions outbound to the target. |
First flight. Lands like a carrier aircraft - no flare, just put it firmly on the deck. |
Originally Posted by BEagle
(Post 10559128)
15000 / 4 = 3750lb each. At 8lb / imp. gallon, that makes 469 imp gallon each - about the same as 2 x 230 gallon Hunter drop tanks....
Surely no-one is going to risk AAR returning to the ship without any diversions, so I suppose this drone will be used to refuel missions outbound to the target. https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=56787 |
Pardon my ignorance, but isn't stealth technology intended to conceal your airframe/asset from detection?
So how is the refuelling aircraft going to locate the tanker, without giving away both aircraft? |
Appearances to the contrary, the MQ-25 is not stealthy and it was not a requirement. Check out the planform, and the refuelling pods, once fitted, will increase it substantially. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....f90e306f8.jpeg |
Presumably that image shows 2 x AAR pods for system redundancy reasons? Because with such a small wingspan, there's no way that the drone can refuel 2 fighters simultaneously....
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Starboard wing is a fuel tank - no RAT, different shape.
The position of the intake and the low angle of the stabilisers indicates radar cross section at least at one point was a design driver. |
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