The return of 19 Sqn and 78 Sqn
 

Well two former flying squadron number plates are set to return for Air Surveillance and Control System Control & Reporting Center.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles...JnV9WlSkvSGg5c


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It won't be long before each unit becomes a squadron. The Government will claim it is increasing the number of squadrons thus giving the impression of increasing the size of the military.

OMG! One way to pack the ‘front line’ numbers, I suppose, but my sympathy goes to former members of No. 78 Sqn RAF who are now associated with the Mil element of Swanwick (which isn’t even on an RAF station).

Bah and humbug.
Former ATCO.

Bizarre, just bizarre. Whatever the quotes are for the Boulmer CRC and RAFU Swanwick, I'll wager the members of those units are as confused as I am about the reasoning behind this decision - and I suspect ZH875 will be close to the truth.

Once GUARDIAN is delivered, Swanwick will become both a Mil ATC and ASACS Unit - the ASACS Resilience Entity at Swanwick will be the fallback for the Primary CRC at Boulmer, taking the place of Scampton, which will close. A bit more, therefore, than MPN11 intimates, but not a lot!

I suspect my Dad will be turning in his grave Ex 78 Dakota's Egypt 1946 - 47, helicopters was bad enough ;)

I’m going to rename my den 74 Sqn and put a plaque on the door, after all there’s more to do with real aviation in situ than some of the units out there now.

Beggars belief! Bah Humbug!!!

Mog

Are you offering to host a virtual Tiger meet?

I cry, foul! :8Lucky escape for some, my understanding is the seniority of the first 10 dormant squadrons was V, 43, 111, 208, 20, 19, 15, 78, 55, 207. I thought the RAF system was at least straightforward unlike the RN's appears to be. Or are there six secret establishments with squadron numbers?


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Last seen with Scimitars on Hermes in 1961 (Before I was launched.)

I can see the battle honours on the colours now.

• Western Front (1916-1918)*
• Somme (1916)*
• Arras
• Ypres (1917)*
• Somme (1918)
• Lys
• Amiens
• Hindenburg Line
• Dunkirk*
• Home Defence (1940-1942)
• Battle of Britain (1940)*
• Channel and North Sea (1942-1942)
• Fortress Europe (1942-1944)*
• Dieppe
• Normandy 1944*
• Arnhem
• France & Germany (1944-1945)
• Dell computers 2021

I never imagined 78 Sqn would turn into this when I was flying Twin Pioneers in Aden in 1959.

Waiting for the moment when a batch of used Snow Queen Skis become a squadron....

At the risk of being controversial - not without precedent. How many Bloodhound squadrons carried the number plate of a former flying squadron?
I suppose it could be a way of packing out the numbers, but equally it’s also a way of keeping Sqns going and contemporary rather than them disappearing into the history books.

I only served on 78 Sqn in the Falklands for four months and thought that the Squadron status was pushing it a bit, but this is just a bloody joke!

So true, it makes much more sense to retain the squadron ethos even if the tasks change dramatically.
I'd assume a lot of tank squadrons were cavalry initially,so there is plenty of precedent.

Thor units had squadron numbers too didn't they?

I know that XXV (F) was assigned to a bloodhound unit.

Bit of an odd decision - I imagine everyone except the people that signed off on it think the same.

I'd not like to work in a non-flying unit assigned a flying unit number. It would feel odd and I assume it would invite derision.

I will prefer to remember the real 19 Sqn !
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At Cosford, the 'active' aircraft which provided airfield training were called 238 Sqn (I think).

About 40 years ago, it was a letter I wrote to Air Clues, which led to the change from OCUs to 'R' squadrons. I got a load of stick about the suggestion, until Air Marshal Sir John Curtiss thought it a good idea and it suddenly became 'respectable'.

Some of our allies actually have the support services at an air base, carrying a number - don't be surprised when Brize becomes the 520th Air Base Support Wing. We of course already have 'Expeditionary Air Wings'. I have to confess that I would have felt a little more 'engaged' had I been the member of a squadron or numbered wing at a station, rather than 'OC Bogs and Drains' Flight or somesuch. (When I was 'holding' at St Athan, I was appointed 'O i/c Outside Toilets'. Standing around waiting for COs inspection, would probable get me a spell in prison now, or perhaps some unwelcome suggestions!!!).

Old Duffer

Audax..Good idea. I have a 78 crest on the study wall. A relocation to the door is called for. (78 Wessex; Khormaksar and Sharjah '67-'68)

May I suggest that the issue here is not the use of a number to identify a unit but the use of the word ‘Squadron’ as the descriptor. I would like to know which dictionary provides a definition of ‘squadron’ that is applicable to this context.

I have often thought it would be better to allocate the numbers to (flying) flights. Then tradition and memorabilia etc could be held at sub-unit level, just as the RA keep tradition at Batteries rather than Regiments.

So a current "Squadron" would become a Wing - commanded by a wg cdr! - and would comprise 2 or 3 (or more) numbered Sqns.

As an example, a "Puma Wing" could comprise 33, 230 and 78, with perhaps an additional one (with or without (R)) for the OCF.

And for Old-Duffer's "Bogs and Drains", maybe the motto of 617 - if not the badge - would be entirely appropriate!

I see no snags ........ and think of all the Standards at Dining-In Nights!

I have wondered why the 1950's idea of linked squadrons to preserve traditions etc. wasn't revived. 19 was linked to 152 between 1940 and '54. Obvious pairing that come to mind include 5/11, 15/16, 19/92, 22/202, 43/111, and 55/57, or even 23/56/74. Until the 1990s ther were plenty of double number army regiments particularly cavalry e.g 16th/5th Lancers and the 17th/21st Lancers.

I understand that a surefire way of upsetting their officers was by calling the former "the improper fraction", and the latter by asking what had become of the other "4/21st"

Jack.

But the Thor and Bloodhounds were potentially fliers, Swanick isn’t, what next the RAF Cricket team becoming a Sqn?
it all just degrades the things carried out by these Sqns in the past to defend this country.

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And your Sqn number this week will be...............

It got too complicated as the Army shrank but the politicians wanted to keep the "County" Regiments. For example the 66th Infantry became the Berkshires then the Royal Berkshire Regiment (Princess Charlotte of Wales's) then the Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Regiment (Berkshire and Wiltshire) which was again amalgamated, as the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment. This was eventually merged with the Devonshire and Dorset Regiment, the Royal Green Jackets and The Light Infantry to form a new large regiment. The name of the Regiment was becoming longer than the space available on badges etc so they just called it The Rifles.

The idea of resurrecting squadrons and then returning the silver, standards and other stuff has a flaw in it.

When units/squadrons closed down, the memorabilia was returned to the original donor (if known) or it went to the central repository and standards were laid up in a church or someplace similar. In some cases items were auctioned before the balance went to the repository.

The stuff in the central repository was at one stage in RAF Quedgeley (No 7MU), supposedly with a 'Property Book' ie the inventory of non-public property. When 7MU closed it went to another stores unit and is now apparently at a joint service storage unit near Telford. Concern was expressed some years ago that the security of the stuff was suspect and there have been suggestions that - how can I put this politely - some items might have been mislaid! The RAF seems not to be interested in the matter and there are no plans to carry out any sort of audit of what is actually still held and hence the property is at risk.

I wonder what the response would be to a PQ asked in the Commons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Old Duffer

Not that long ago the RW Stds Flt and Trials Flt moved to a new Stn and became a Wg.

I know I will have got the names terribly wrong but here goes.

When the Army amalgamated the following:-

The Royal Green Jackets
The Duke of Wellingtons
The Prince of Wales Own

the result was

The Prince of Wales Own Green Wellingtons

This isn't new (although it is an extension of the policy) - for example the RAuxAF ground units were given the numbers of former RAuxAF flying squadrons as long ago as the late 90s, and 92 have been the Tactics and Training Wing of the AWC for a number of years

207 is active as the F-35 OCU

Ooooh, I think that should read Green Howards?

I do wonder what the late great Air Cdr Joan Hopkins would say?

Many, many great Sqns and their identities have gone in the past and if you are going to let Sqns go as the RAF “declines” in numbers then please do it with some respect and let them go.
To rename offices and the like as Sqns is disrespecting the RAF’s history and those that came before. those people fought and died as part of those Sqns.

I for one quite liked the idea of making existing Sqns Wings and the flights Sqns, that at least would realign some of the rank structure with the format.
But naming buildings after Sqns, what next, the tea trolley.

Well put Nutty, as a past member of the late and great XV Sqn it could be the new Gents WC’s Sqn what with it having the motto “Aim Sure”!

Squadron - a unit or military organisation.

I'm glad the numbers are in use again, and I'd be pretty sure that the people who in future become part of those Squadrons will cherish the often hard won history and ethos of the former flying unit. Times change, roles change..

Mea Culpa! It should be 203. I had forgotten 207 jumped the queue as the former No, 7 Sqn RNAS. “I am very pleased to announce that the Operational Conversion Unit for the UK’s F-35B Lightning fleet will be 207 Squadron. The squadron has a proud and distinguished history, not only as an RAF squadron but as one of the earliest squadrons of the Royal Naval Air Service which, with the Royal Flying Corps, came together to form the Royal Air Force on 1 April 1918." Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Hillier

Especially given its former SACLANT role and greater seniority, I can't see why it wasn't 208 if they were looking for an ex-RNAS unit.

"But naming buildings after Sqns, what next, "

Some lunatic will probably suggest naming FAA/RNAS bases after warships and calling them HMS .................

Well Asturias 56, some RN shore establishments are already 'HMS', so it's happened!!! Culdrose - HMS Seahawk

Old Duffer

In the relevant titles to include Wales, it is Wales's, not Wales'. The latter is a modern monstrosity.
However, my ex-Grammar School teacher daughter says I am wrong and an old fogey.
Yes to both.