Leonardo Lobbying for Puma Replacement to Secure Yeovil future
 

Telegraph 15NOV2020

Quote:

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Helicopter jobs fears as Leonardo lobbies for UK order

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Haven't seen this picked up elsewhere but it looks they are still pushing the AW149 as a replacement for the Puma fleet. Not sure if this a new story or a rehash of earlier ones. There is a perceived capability gap between the current Puma OSD of 2025 and any purchase resulting from the UK getting involved in the US FVL/FLRAA program(me). However, as I have said before my understanding was the UK Rotary Strategy included consolidating on fewer platforms. Following the AAC Apache D replacement decision does "The answer is Boeing what's the question?" now apply to RW. The RN won't be looking for a new platform until the mid 2030s so does this mean the end of UK OEM military RW is almost certain?

The new money isn't to fill the existing procurement budget shortfall but for Cyber and Space. So I don't see any funding for Puma replacement likely.

They'd be better off figuring out how to supply 12-16 Merlin HM variants quickly and cost-effectively. Which might support export orders off the back of them. We need more Merlin - the case for Puma is less clear.

I suspect the answer will end up being 'more Chinooks'.

Surely the Pumas can't need replacing ALREADY?

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...early-setbacks

But in the comments...

Yeah! The oldest is only a mere 50 years old!

Surely there must be a few refurbished Wessex around.

What happened to the 12 unconverted airframes? Pre-Covid were the RN still struggling with aircrew retention like five years ago?

Four deregistered and in various locations (inc 2 at Yeovil apparently), plus eight in xmas-tree state in a Boscombe Down hangar. More trouble to rebuild rather than fix the systemic issues with new builds..

[QUOTE=Jn14:6;10930240]Yeah! The oldest is only a mere 50 years old![/Q​​​​​​



The remaining fleet was upgraded to HC.2 standard, only within the last 10 years, at an exorbidant cost. Some sources suggest the OSD could 'slide' 10 extra years though!

I think Leonardo may have played the same card too many times. The few marginal Limp Dumb constituencies are probably less valuable after the collapse of the red wall.

This is what you get in supposed “mergers” the greater partner “home team” sooner or later disposes of their previous competition.

I was the blade bay inspector at Middle Wallop. A team of 5 of us overhauled Lynx/Wildcat main & Tail blades (plus Gazelle) and we were churning out more blades than Yeovil site were/could. Out of the blue we got shut down and made redundant and “all work went to Yeovil”. One of the staff was an ex-Leonardos employee and kept in touch with his mates, who were still on the inside. They reported that there was a lot of sitting around by permies and the contractors picking up the workload.

I’m told it’s a strange place to work.

Seen that happen in a major UK aircraft company, at the end they only had one aircraft in, a full workforce to work on it but were banned from doing so and a hangar full of connies brought in and doing the check... Turned out some accountant had figured out it was cheaper to have contractors do the work than their own staff, but never took into account the company staff were still being paid to do nothing on top of his cheaper labour..

It folded shortly afterwards.

[QUOTE=BTC8183;10930479]They could probably have done a total swap for EC725s for less!

I worked on SKIOS for 7 months doing calcs to reinforce Aussie Sea King cabins for crashworthy seats amongst other things, as a young contracting stressman.

It was quite different to Filton...

"The remaining fleet was upgraded to HC.2 standard, only within the last 10 years, at an exorbidant cost. Some sources suggest the OSD could 'slide' 10 extra years though!"

£400m for 20 aircraft which gave 10-14 yrs of extra service, whilst out-lifting the Merlin in Afghanistan was a bargain!

to re-engine the Merlin was around £800m...

£260 million for 24 aircraft but an absolute bargain.


“Probably” nope, would have been about 12 EC725s vice 24 Puma 2.

AST 404
 

ASt404 Ring a Bell with anyone ? When the Super Puma offered back in the early 80S?

cheers

Pound and dollar faff 😀

But that would have been 12 EC725s plus 24 unconverted Puma 1 still available to do whatever with.

Not so, for a few reasons Puma 1 was not legally allowed to fly, hence the upgrade.

Do Leonardo export helicopter components from the Yeovil site - things like rotors, rotorheads, rotor folding systems, and so on? I am sure these things were produced for export back in the GKN Westland days.

For once, I think the answer will be 'fewer Chinooks'.

The case for a smaller simpler aircraft to replace Puma (and maybe the other ancient small twins dotted around the place) is fairly clear. This may or may not come to pass - but increasing the size of the Merlin fleet definitely won't!

A couple of CSG deployments may just concentrate minds.....

Surely MOD thinking will involve looking at the size of the average army squad then issuing a spec minus one of the optimum seat numbers required.

‘A couple of CSG deployments may just concentrate minds....’

Not really. If Royal really needs to go somewhere and do something, rather than simply posturing, conducting TV friendly beach assaults and attending Cocker-Ps, the first thing that will occur will be 4-6 Chinooks arriving on board. Yes they can’t fold, but they offer about 3-4 times the punch per deck spot of the Merlin and, crucially, are capable of carrying the heavy kit (vehicles/guns) that Merlin simply cannot.

The proposed NGR is a ‘medium’ helicopter replacement. Merlin is only a ‘medium’ in terms of performance and lift, it is a ‘heavy’ in terms of space (wider / taller than a Chinook, almost as long and arguably with a worse downwash) and in cost to both buy and operate. It makes complete sense for Puma/Merlin (CHF) to be replaced by a common airframe. The French have been even more extreme, planning to replace 400+ Gazelles, Fennecs, Alouettes, Pumas, Dauphins, Panthers and Cougars with just over 160 H160Ms. IMHO, this bit of industrial protectionism sinks the Euro-NGR initiative. I simply can’t see there being enough demand to build a new type at an affordable price. NH-90 has produced a curate’s egg of a machine; highly sophisticated, but also fragile and expensive - especially when compared directly to later models of UH-60. Does Europe beat its chest and throw Billions at another political compromise or buy FLRAA off the shelf (or licence build it)?

Wrong sort of Merlin. Royal isn't the user I'm thinking of, nor is tactical lift. If 60 Chinook, 25 Merlin and 20 or so Puma isn't enough to support future tactical lift, then we may be doing something wrong (even with some frames retiring with age).

The Merlins with mission systems are the ones we need more of - and despite some expectations, UAV will not replace them any time soon.

It may do. We'll see!

Can you explain your rationale behind this please?

Go on, you know you want them, you really really want them,,,,

https://www.airandground.com/sikorsk...k-helicopters/

I assume you mean the rationale for more frames, rather than that UAV can't do the role.

When the CSG deploys it'll need somewhere between 8 and 12 Merlin HM2 spread across the group, 6-8 Pingers and 4 Baggers. That's from a forward fleet of 18-20 cabs which also have to provide training frames for 824NAS, support to Gannet, one for the TAPS and potentially another frigate. Once you factor in serviceability that's challenging.

Puma isn’t on the list as one of the airframes replaced by H160M, as i spoke to couple of DGa personnel and one Armee de l‘Air pilot with the H160M mock up at Le Bourget last year. Think it was penned in but the Armee de l’Air will probably order more H225M CSAR to replace the Puma. However the Armee de l’Air H160M will be AAR capable, probably making it the smallest helo to be refuelled in flight like the HH-60G/HH-60W/MH-60K.

But I do agree with you 400 into 100 airframes is ambitious lest it offset costs for the technology. Then again look at how small the RAF is compared to 2 decades ago and 3 and 4...

cheers

Chopper, the Puma is being replaced in the short term by some leased H225s IIRC. I spoke to the head of the H160M project last week and he stated that the aircraft is seen as the Puma replacement for escorting the CSAR recovery birds, as well as other Air Force roles such as replacing the Fennecs in the slow mover AI task. As always, lots can change between now and ISD......

I thought the French were looking at Chinook as well after the use of the RAF ones in Africa and their participation in the Bastille Day parade?

https://www.overtdefense.com/2019/07...k-helicopters/

Think you may have found the winner there! However, if this was to go ahead, would the Government insist that they are built in the UK, making them more expensive than needed. There does seem to be a bit of a track record of UK jobs before the right kit!

With a mission system unique to the original owner, from a supplier with no real knowledge of the roles and responsibilities of the DA , or whatever they are called today, and where the support facility was on the far side of the world.
The basic air frame is probably fine, but otherwise, thank you, but no, thanks.

I really do think that when you see terms like levelling up being expected in business case that the solution will be a UK product, yo just need to work out what it looks like.

We've sold our soul to the FMS system and I think we may regret that in years to come. We're dependent on the U.S and importantly the leader of it and his/her goodwill.

If Puma is replaced it will be an LH product. A basic Merlin keeps the most of UK money inside the UK. 189 is the traditional FAL and keeps Italy happy. I want a solution where UK PLC benefits and not the U.S or Italy.

OMG nooo, don’t resurrect the WG.30 again ;)