It's extremely sad that you think accepting people for how nature intended, to allow them to be open about the fact without persecution is a "social engineering experiment."
It's not a social engineering experiment, it's a moral imperative and I think most people serving in the Armed Forces today would agree that it's one of the things that gives them the moral edge over the enemy that they're fighting.
I did not call Remembrance parades a political march in the slightest, so don't try to put words into my mouth to deflect the attention. The people we commemorate were put in that position by politicians. It's as simple as that, so it's factually correct to highlight how politics relates to remembrance.

Your words. Not mine. So yes, you did. Own it.

I dont give a tinker's cuss for what you think is a moral imperative, or what you think people in an Armed Forces of which you know nothing care about.

I do care about Remembrance Day being hijacked for political stunts though. Which is the thread topic.

​

It still doesn't say what you claimed it said, and once again you are playing mental gymnastics because your very resistance to what you perceive to be a "political stunt" is an actual political stunt, performed by those with quite fundamentalist political agendas.
The Pride movement was intended to fight the stigma attached to members of the LGBT+ community from being open about their difference in sexual orientation. If the truth be told, in principle it's no different to the movement to raise awareness of mental health, another stigma that society is becoming increasingly aware of, and we will fight that one, too. Neither of which are political.

Look, I get it... you're uncomfortable with LGBT+ service personnel who have died on operations, being commemorated for their service. That's not entirely your fault, but when you express your discomfort on an open forum, you will be challenged over it. I don't care in the slightest how resentful you are of the fact. I do care about those who are still serving, though, and the message that will be sent to them by not challenging views such as those that you have expressed.

Yes it does. Claiming the opposite is denying the obvious and makes you look foolish. The evidence is there for all to see. As I said, own it.


You are contradicting yourself again. The Gay pride movement is an intensely political movement which has now gained traction in Government and the media after years of political campaigning. It worked. The gay ban was lifted while I was still serving, so the battle was won! Done deal. Further flag waving and use of the flag at the Cenotaph is not only political and inappropriate, it is unnecessary.

​​Those people are represented by ALL the tri-service wreaths. It is one big inclusive service commemorating ALL veterans, not just the ones you wish to bang your political drum for.

You are not challenging anything, just parading your poundshop sixth-form Antifa debating skills on said open forum...and making yourself look rather immature. If you do ever join, you may realise this. Edit: c.f. Your comments on Chris Loder MP having the whip removed for stepping in to remove the disgraceful political protest banner. Think on that.

BVRAAM, your wilful misinterpretations and patronising tone are wearing very thin indeed. Remembrance has never paid any heed to rank, service, sex, creed, colour, class, or any other characteristic of the dead. None of it matters except for the fact they died in wartime service; indeed the Unknown Soldier could have been a gay black man for all anyone knows. I have always understood wreaths bearing unit badges or other symbols to show who is doing the remembering, not who is being remembered. And I join others in taking a dim view of them being used to send any other message, whether that’s ‘save the planet’, ‘join the Scouts’ or ‘be LGBT+ aware’. It is not the platform for any message besides remembrance of all the fallen.

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Here come the ad hominem attacks. Lovely.

There are two sides to every story and these people would argue that the fight for acceptance is far from "won." They are well within their right to lay a wreath for those who were forbidden from expressing pride in themselves, while still prepared to give their lives for a cause that they believed to be bigger than themselves.
I am banging no such political drum here. Your ANTIFA reference is so far off the mark, it's laughable.

It's not patronising to point out when an argument is utter hoop.
LGBT acceptance is not political, it's a moral imperative. There is absolutely nothing political about it. I disagree with your view.

hint: people disagreeing with you =/= ad hominem attacks, nor is it abuse. And no, there is no 'right' to lay a political banner/wreath at the Cenotaph. Even the veterans groups with a bagpiper were kept out of Whitehall by an aggressive Met Police cordon.

The argument isn't the ad hom, the way in which it's presented is the ad hom.

Yes, there is a 'right,' commemorating the sacrifices made by the fallen falls within freedom of expression.

The Met Police incident you refer to was for public safety in the midst of a pandemic, never before has the Remembrance Sunday event been closed to the public.

​​​​

I said nothing about ‘LGBT acceptance’ being political, any more than ‘join the Scouts’ is political. My point is that any message besides remembrance, political or not, is inappropriate in that setting. But I will follow you off-topic to point out that your latest argument is utter hoop because you have conflated ‘acceptance’ with ‘discrimination’. Discrimination is a settled matter politically and law-abiding citizens can indeed be said to be under a moral imperative not to do it. In contrast, you and I might well see LGBT acceptance as a personal moral imperative, but try telling that to those with certain genuinely-held religious beliefs and see whether you still think it’s an apolitical matter. In fact I can’t think of anything more politically-charged than telling people what to think.

Bill McGillivray,

I agree about the Scouts join up message, remembrance and the Cenotaph are neither the time or place for such slogans, anymore than the XR's save the Planet message or whatever it said, and I agree anyone can lay a wreath and where there is space, not, however delicately, step among previous wreathes to lay yours in a more prominent position, as if demanding of higher recognition. The Queen's wreath, I understand is laid first and placed most prominently on the day and this is as it should be.

Downwind Maddl-and,

Thanks for your reply, I more than others have a tendency to get carried away when posting, especially when the topic and some other posts are ones which I find unduly provocative at times. But I'm glad you see my point through the rambling.

FB

Please explain where in our Constitution we have an enshrined freedom of expression?! I would love to know. Give us some more hyperbole please.

The regular people trying to access the Cenotaph should have been able to comemorate the Dead but unfortunately came up against the very selective policing standards of the Met which allow some protests...but not others.

In fairness to the Scouts, I have yet to see any image of a wreath saying 'Join the Scouts' or the like. The only images of Scout wreaths I have found are a standard 'Scouts, Be Prepared' which is no different to any RAF wreath for instance that bears a motto. The alleged 'Join the Scouts' wreath was instanced by one poster who then confessed he was unable to find it on Google!

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....5eb973bf6e.jpg

This thread seems to have descended into somewhere for BVRAAM to practice his debating skills (or lack of).

It seems there’s a general consensus on this thread that ER placing their ‘wreath’ on The Cenotaph, at the time they did, is pretty distasteful and unwelcome. Unfortunately, BVRAAM looks to tell us all why it is okay - I’m not going to into the detail of his various specious arguments, it’s just not worth it.

If XR had simply had someone walk up to the Cenotaph, respectfully lay a wreath at the foot, alongside all the other wreaths, then walk away, this debate would not be occuring. Other organisations (including LGBT ones) managed to do so, thus showing respect.

The fact that the man deliberately walked "through" and placed his wreath "above" others, with the action being filmed, is what took the "gesture" from being one of respect, to being a political statement.

It is that aspect that makes it aborrent to me..... respect I can admire... "using" the Act of Remembrance for political purposes I cannot.

Absolutely OV6. Well said!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....cd2431bb95.jpg
I'm unsure why Chris Loder MP is credited with removing the wreath, when the Police were filmed taking in down shortly after it was placed? Photo from https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/131654...membrance-day/

I doubt it will change minds, but I've just seen this academic input:

https://defenceindepth.co/2020/11/16...f-remembrance/

Helen McCartney, 'Reader' :-

In my day the Armed Forces did dissociate themselves with the political ends of the democratically elected Government of the day, and simply did as they were legally ordered. Has that changed?

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/mccartney-dr-helen

Not a problem here putting down a wreath with the rest of them around the base, it was the banner across the fence that took it from simply paying respect to another level.
Sensible course would have been to remove the banners forthwith and then the wreath and place it among the others around the base.