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Yes the Lightning turned very well. Mind you when flying low level intercepts and dogfighting, the fuel did not last very long! They turned in the horizontal and tried to point their guns at him, he played the vertical whilst trying to keep out of their sights. 8-9 minutes after take-off he was chicken RTB at 10 miles finals..... |
Originally Posted by Firestreak
(Post 10906141)
G 91s flown by Belgians? Not the ones we used to fight from Gutersloh, they were the only thing that could live with the Lightning in a turning bout at low level. The Buccs thought they could out turn us but really, get them to roll and pull at the same time and anything could happen aerodynamically, very amusing.
Correct, brain fade on my part. They would have been flown by mad Germans. The mad Belgians flew 104s, more latterly F-16s. |
We were flying with the late Dick Langworthy in a Puma of 240 OCU being used by Standards on a Jol..nav-ex to Copenhagen when his twin brother passed under the nose in a Jag.
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When I was on basic training at Cranwell on the JP5a, we had 2 German instructors - both ex 104s (affectionally known as widowmakers). After Cranwell one if them went back to 104s and was killed shortly afterwards. The other survived but not sure what subsequently happened to him. He had given me a set of his Luftwaffe metal wings as a passing out gesture, which I still keep with fond memories.
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My Starfighter stories run to:
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Towards more picturesque speech.
Sorry about the thread drift (complete departure), but it reminded me of a USAF sergeant watching the T31 (Cadet mk3 to the ex-ATC) on the approach at the RAFGSA centre at Bicester. "Glidin' angle of a crowbar" he opined.
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Originally Posted by charliegolf
(Post 10906308)
My Starfighter stories run to:
Oh, a third... On a Bad K coolex, I asked another Canadian (knowing the answer full well) how a 104 glides. "Like a buncha keys", was his response.CG |
I did hear High Key in an F104 was above 20,000 ft...
Once as a UAS stude I 'helped' VASF at Bruggen pack tail chutes into 2 German F104s, while the 2 pilots caught their breath. Neither of them spring chickens, both in their grey leather jackets, looked cool as I don't know what!!! And being German FJs, CLEAN!!!! Same happened with Tornados. They had conscripts, apparently cleaning jets was what they did. |
The German 'conscripts' were actually doing their national service and took immense pride in keeping their jets looking immaculate!
They also clamoured to work in the restaurant at the Luftwaffe passenger terminal at Koeln/Bonn (Wahn) as that would set them up for subsequent work in the restaurant business. It was something of a win/win situation and worked very well! |
Understand it was National Service.
First clean fin I ever saw on a Tonka was German Navy |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10905957)
The air control orders (ACOs) for RAF helicopters in (West) Germany back in those Cold War days usually stated not above 150 feet agl. That was the whole of the country. Fixed wing had to be not below 250 feet, to give a 100 foot separation. In published low flying areas, or areas designated as exercise areas, or areas which crews were deemed to have become familiarised with, we could transit at 50 feet agl. For certain parts of a flight there was no height limit, only a ten metre MSC, minimum (lateral) separation clearance. We regularly trained to fly under wires. Minimum clearances for that were 6 metres above, 3 metres laterally from a pylon, 2 metres below (to avoid the possibility of HT arcing through the airframe).
It was quite normal to get “bounced” by fast jets looking for training targets to play with. F-104s and F-4s were relatively easy to deal with, you could spot them miles away by their trail of black exhaust smoke and even if they saw you they were in the next county by the time they had turned round to get a bead on you. G-91s were more difficult to see, difficult to lose and flown by mad Belgians! Harrier pilots usually had to be told where we were.... Glad to have been part of it, but I wouldn’t want my kids doing it! |
" The German 'conscripts' were actually doing their national service and took immense pride in keeping their jets looking immaculate "
True, and the German Air Force also offered them a very attractive package to transfer to full time service if they wished. Met a few who had taken up the offer. Did my F-104 " Cross training " at Memmingen, nice view of the Alps to wake up to every day, and I've still got the certificate, but then came the real thing when they came to Bruggen for a week. There was the "7 finger check " as part of the start up...all was going well until we got to the AoA vein which had to be moved by the engineer....alas, said vein is also heated so the CB had to be pulled by the pilot.....he didn't.... hence the delicate aroma of frying flesh and some rude words...from me. Got one of those "oops ! sorry looks " however, international relations were fully restored later with some medicinal alcohol he supplied . |
IIRC, the RAF loss rate for Lightnings was greater than the Luftwaffe F 104 rate, the big difference was in the pilot survival rate, far better from the Lightning.
Once had a trip in a Danish F104. We did a PFL and again, IIRC high key was @20 thousand, low key at 9000, over the hedge speed in the region of 200kts. I believe in the real case the u/c was lowered very late in the procedure by a socking great reserve bottle which blew the gear down in an instant. |
I understand that the characteristic ‘howl’ of a Star was created at a certain throttle setting ?
am I correct David |
IIRC, the RAF loss rate for Lightnings was greater than the Luftwaffe F 104 rate, the big difference was in the pilot survival rate, far better from the Lightning. |
Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur
(Post 10906662)
I understand that the characteristic ‘howl’ of a Star was created at a certain throttle setting ?
am I correct David In 1968 I flew to Nürnberg as part of a four ship Navex; in Hiller 12E windup clockwork toys! On the way we had the inevitable experience of being underflown by a gaggle of F104Gs, and then overnighted at Büchel where we looked after quite magnificently by the Luftwaffe and hosted by an F104G Squadron. As a newly minted Acting Sub-Lieutenant I was bitterly envious of one of their pilots who was about my age (21) and driving around the skies in one of those machines: we went off somewhere for a drink or three and I mislaid the bottle of Jägermeister I'd acquired. No worries, after breakfast he had the Officer's Mess bar opened and they sold me another bottle; at 07:00 :cool: Efficient lot; happy days. |
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Or the Irish sea. An Irish friend of mine had an undercarriage anomaly which required an automatic ejection over the sea in the Lightning. As he was in the North Wales training area at the time he elected to bang out over Llanbedr heading West. While he sorted himself out he decided to engage the autopilot - and then forgot to disengage it prior to ejection. So there was this Lightning heading towards Dublin with no pilot! A couple of aircraft were scrambled to attempt to shoot it down before it reached the Irish coast, but luckily it ran out of fuel before it got there! I remember the stick that he took in the bar that night - trying to take his country folk out!
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Originally Posted by PaulH1
(Post 10906179)
Yes the Lightning turned very well. Mind you when flying low level intercepts and dogfighting, the fuel did not last very long!
And that's where I first heard that one should try to fight with the Lightning vertically, not horizontally. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10906264)
We were flying with the late Dick Langworthy in a Puma of 240 OCU being used by Standards on a Jol..nav-ex to Copenhagen when his twin brother passed under the nose in a Jag.
indeed. on ‘flag’ 85/1 I was lucky enough to get a ride in the SF C130 on the final package. I had to work for my living, though. On my knees along side the RH seat, my job was as a spotter looking out for redair with hostile intention. The rad alt installation was somewhat “experimental” with the readout fitted to the top of the cockpit coating with copious strips of black bodge tape. It was reading somewhat less than 150’ when the wings were momentarily level and I spotted a Jag go directly underneath us. I never realised Jags had such a large fin....😱 |
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