Soldiers, Sailors and ...?
 

So a lot of discussion ongoing about finding a collective noun to equate to soldiers and sailors. I agree that ‘officers, airmen and airwomen’ is somewhat clunky but what to use instead?

‘Aviator’ seems the favourite at the moment, but before you all start quoting dictionaries, you do have to then accept an interpretation of the word that is:

a. Gender neutral by discounting the word aviatrix (in the same way the term actor now applies to women rather than actress).

b. Applicable to all those involved in the business of aviation (ie in the RAF), rather than just those who actually fly.

Or is there a better term?


The second issue revolves about the rank of Aircraftman (and LAC and SAC) which officially applies to women too - I believe their rank is not, bizarrely Aircraftwoman. It’s the only rank we have that is gendered, so how about changing that too, in the same way that the RN moved away from Able Seaman to Able Rate. One proposal is to change the term to ‘Specialist’ (or for the techies, ‘Technician’)

Now this is Pprune, so I fully expect the usual suspects to tell me that this is Political Correctness gone mad and how in the 80’s even the women were real men, but FWIW, my view is that it is both an easy thing to change and something that we ought to do. The test to me is that, as a bloke, would you want your rank to be ‘Aircraftwoman’?

Personally I think "aircraft specialist" is the best bet. Aviator implies too heavily in modern English that one flies.

... civilians.

Soldiers, Sailors and Airforce. It describes exactly whats on the tin.

You could then retain the rank structure as well Leading Airforce Colleague, Senior Airforce Colleague etc

Soldiers, Sailors and Aeronauts

Soldiers Sailors and a Higher Force..

They used to be, but they were binned with the WRAF, but then knowing the RAF and all their Gender cr*p they seem to foist upon themselves, you would need several variants these days.

The term man is not gender specific - “What a piece of work is man!” In Hamlet applies equally, as does mankind and manslaughter.

I always thought the trend to use terms such as chairperson was manifestly silly, as with attempts to eliminate the use of term as a prefix or suffix b6 those ignorant of the etymology.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/man

"a featherless plantigrade biped mammal of the genus Homo" [Century Dictionary], Old English man, mann "human being, person (male or female).

Aeronaut is a good one.

Or perhaps we could bin all of them and refer to everyone collectively with that horrible Americanism 'Warfighter'.:yuk:

The RCAF now use Aviator. I think it works and I can’t think of any other options that aren’t clumsy. Yes, you’d have to apply your assumptions but the outside world isn’t going to care, nor are those joining after any change of title.

Going out on a limb ORAC, I'd guess that you, like I, are male. I can assure that as far as a significant number of females are concerned, "man" is very gender specific and they do not wish to be described as such. Whilst males might not see the issue, it doesn't mean there is one.

In this case an issue exists that does everything from gently rubbing someone up the wrong way that they won't feel the need to say anything about, all the way to an issue big enough to stop people from joining. Indeed there are some women who genuinely don't give a crap, but that doesn't mean the organisation shouldn't change to bring the rest on board. Especially when that change costs literally nothing, why would one not?

Soldiers, sailors and 'betters'. If adopted, Rocks will have to be 'soldiers', obvs!:ok:

It should be 'airmen' IMO. It's utilitarian, it will do fine.

New no2's to come as well....

In which case you are mistaken.

Legitimate, care to comment on the rest?

'Airman, plural Airmen'.

'As in Man, plural Men' and 'Woman, plural Women' before anyone bangs the gender or LGB-GT drum....

Surprised our fishy friends haven't suggested 'Crabs'....

Surely it should be Air'they' to avoid offending all those poor angst ridden souls who can't 'identify' with any gender at all? ;-)

The Military,it covers everything

I thought I did.

Even during the period when the WRAF was a separate service and had separate officer ranks - Section Officer etc - the names of the other ranks were the same as in the RAF and non-gender specific.

If the need is just to assuage perceived rather than actual slights or injustices to aid recruitment, then where does one draw the line? There will always be those who wish to feel offended.

Soldiers, Sailors and Evolution.... Just to show how far we have moved on.

Soldiers, Sailors and Xboxers...... The future of Aviation..

Soldiers, Sailors and Airwarriors

Aviator means someone who flies, as a pilot. It's been the dictionary for longer than the RAF has existed. 'Specialist' doesn't work as the collective noun as it isn't exclusive to the air force, or even air power. 'Leading Specialist' and 'Senior Specialist' (but not Senior Air Specialist because of the abbreviation...) might work for ranks, but not the collective term.

While an abuse of the original etymology behind its creation, 'Ardian' might work, albeit it was originally proposed for officer ranks in the list which was drawn up when the Admiralty (and to a lesser extent the War Office) objected to the use of their ranks for the new service, but which wasn't implemented.

It is gender neutral, has some heritage and tradition behind it, although it is, of course, obscure and as the word (a combination of two Gaellic words) loosely means 'Chief Bird', it is clearly aviation-related, but doesn't suggest one who flies an aircraft. And using the 'primary provider of the UK's air power' mantra which was fashionable a few years ago, it fits with that, too. Finally, humans are higher in the pecking order (sorry....) than birds when it comes to the food chain, so 'chief bird' might work, just about, in that sense as well.

If you’re getting silly call them collectively Angels (ranks Cherubim, Seraphim etc) with NCOs obviously being Archangels......

For inclusivity, what about, 'airthey'? Does it not cover all 64 genders?

CG

I always thought civilians aviated and we flew.

Can’t use aviators because there are aviators and aviatrix....

You could just refer to crew - as in aircrew, ground crew, supernumerary crew etc.

It has a suitable naval ring - “the officers and crew prepared for battle”.

Soldiers, Sailors and Air People. Leading Air Person, Senior Air Person etc ?.

And the SWO?

The RAF obviously is remiss and has to adjust to modern culture and catch up with the times and vernacular.....

My mother married an RAF Pilot, and from that day on my maternal grandfather invariably referred to the British air force as "that rabble".

I offer this as the very obvious collective noun that the OP is looking for.

What about "soldiers, sailors and woke"

That, dear BEags, is coz we Navy types have been using that phrase routinely (and most effectively) to refer to anyone in the RAF for, well, probably since the RAF was dreamed up out of the RNAS, so there is really no need for any further discussion. ;)

On that basis, we rather fail to see the point of this Thread.......... :ok: Toodle pip! H 'n' H

It has a suitable RAF ring -"The crew prepared to send the the officers to battle. "

No change, obviously - GCMG...

Soldiers, Sailors and Guardians of the Atmosphere has a nice ring to it... ;) we can move onto the Galaxy in a few light years...

Ah, the joys of Anglo-Saxon exceptionalism - in other parts of the world feminists campaign for feminine titles to avoid being obscured by the masculine ones. In France there was a drawn out debate was whether female doctors should be la docteure or la doctoresse earlier it was common to use la docteur. Being a grumpy, older, ex-dark blue, white male I should probably exclude myself from this debate.

However: not wanting to disappoint BEagle and very much in jest...

Army - Solidier derives ultimately from the latin solidus (aka shilling) referring to their pay
Navy - Sailor derives from sailer i.e. someone or thing that sails
So,
Airforce - my ideas are Geographer - someone who uses maps to their own service's advantage, Boaster - someone who celebrates their own achievements, PPensioner - someone who uses PPrune to discuss pension schemes and PVR... other suggestions welcome.

Ding! Ding! Nutty wins... :ok:

If man as a suffix to crafts or midship is non-PC, then surely male as a suffix to fe is equally inappropriate? Perhaps even worse?

Is it really too much of a mouthful to say “airmen and airwomen”? It’s only two syllables longer than the awful ‘aviators’.

My question is are they actually looking at this? With shrinking budgets, And the country with Covid in debt up to the eyeballs. If there is a serious attempt to rename our service personnel you would be a fool to imagine it does not come without a cost. The simple and unfashionable reasoning behind changing Junior Tech to SAC Tech required new rank tabs producing, all the rank posters redoing, all paperwork relating to ranks replacing and the list goes on, Pensions, pay etc, one would like to know how much that exercise cost and for what benefit? The current system has been in place for decades, why change it now?

Of course, prior to 1914 the RNAS was the Naval Wing of the RFC. := ;)

OK ORAC; can't argue with that.