Beware of 'Pilotaware' weather reports (METARS)
Discussion on another forum which is not allowed to be mentioned on here regarding an 'automaatic' weather report feed to aircraft which uses a 'colour state' system.
The colour states reported are totally unlike the system used here, it being an American system giving visibilities in statute miles and using only 4 'colour states' starting with 'green' as the best weather and having no 'white' or 'yellow 1/2'.. You can view the colour states used at www.aviationweather.gov//metar/help?page=plot I've pointed out this is a potential flight safety hazard' I don't even know if the system has been approved by the CAA. |
I’m glad they explained that was for “LWV”, because the symbology shown for that is virtually illegible.
Have another potential cheese-hole. |
Isn't PilotAware done by a British developer? I think it's a one man band thing which is primarily used by GA in the UK - does things like traffic awareness etc?
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Originally Posted by chevvron
(Post 10851589)
I've pointed out this is a potential flight safety hazard'
Originally Posted by chevvron
(Post 10851589)
I don't even know if the system has been approved by the CAA.
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If anyone in aviation is using a piece of kit where they haven't studied the manual, and doesn't know how to use it, the flight safety hazard is not the piece of kit.:suspect:
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Originally Posted by chevvron
(Post 10851589)
The colour states reported are totally unlike the system used here, it being an American system giving visibilities in statute miles and using only 4 'colour states' starting with 'green' as the best weather and having no 'white' or 'yellow 1/2'..
I've pointed out this is a potential flight safety hazard' I don't even know if the system has been approved by the CAA. I find the four colour system (which is, incidentally, used on several other aviation apps including aeroweather) to be a good first glance indicator of the weather state at a given airfield. Does that mean that you should go flying without looking at the specifics - of course not. As fitter says - If you don't RTFI then it ain't the fault of the kit. As for approved by the CAA - of course it does not have to be approved by the CAA! I do find your reaction to this to be somewhat disproportionate. |
As for approved by the CAA - of course it does not have to be approved by the CAA! |
For the avoidance of doubt - The "System" i refer to and to which I interpreted Chevvron's post as referring to was the system of colour coding references for weather.
The wider implications of the PAW system i leave to those with greater knowledge of wriggly amps than me. |
I wouldn’t touch Pilot Aware with a barge pole! I watched a presentation on it once from who can only be described a dodgy used car salesman - they even brought the wretched things in a suitcase! It’s cheap and nasty, plus as BEagle points out, it uses all sorts of ‘amateur-built’ kit for its use from the now defunct Maplins - I’ve seen Raspberry Pis, cheap Chinese GPS dongles, cheap Chinese WifFi dongles and all sorts of antennae and battery lash-ups in light and microlight aircraft. Some of the ground stations aren’t much better, with amateurs (with good intentions) building their own and piping out all sorts of info (weather, aircraft position estimates and rebroadcast FLARM) - none of it is to any certified standard. Of course, to those that use it, it is cheap and better than anything they might have, so they are seduced by it. Having seen some of the installs in GA aircraft I fear for them meeting their lookout responsibilities.
As BEagle says - ADS-B is the international standard for such things as agreed by ICAO - not some dodgy car dealers and CB radio enthusiasts! Oddly enough, the military would never be allowed to fit Pilot Aware due to it’s amateur nature and lack of any proper certification. So that means that the GA pilots will only detect the estimated Mode S locations from our aircraft or if we are pushing out ADS-B. So it’s better than nothing I guess. Sadly, if Pilot Aware is the only thing the light aircraft is carrying to transmit it’s location, then the military aircraft will see nothing apart from what they see with their eyeballs. CPL Clott PS. This is one on the coaming - about the size of a large walkie-talkie and either a battery pack or fag lighter power supply via wires. It displays to a separate tablet device. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....bf1e564c7.jpeg |
@Cpl Cott, My modest machine is not transponder equipped, so I am looking at SkyEcho 2 for Electronic Conspicuity (as it is the mandated standard). I fly in North Yorkshire, and would like to be seen by the various RAF aircraft in the area - do you know which fleets do 'push out ADS-B', and or receive it?
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All of these UK Military aircraft types can and do use ADS-B:
Jupiter Juno C17 Voyager C130J Merlin A400M Prefect Texan Phenom Hunter (FRADU) Sentry F35B Poseidon Most of these also have ADS-B receive. Also, some other aircraft like the BBMF’s carry PowerFLARM that receives ADS-B. Other types have modification plans too - it’s becoming more and more widespread outside the UK so they need to get the capability. Then there are USAF and other visiting forces that use it too. :ok: |
I fly a performance light aircraft here in the UK - Vans RV-6. I've equipped it with an Electronic Conspicuity (EC) suite for safety. My first line of defence is a new Mode S transponder with Extended Squitter enabled - this is the bit that performs the ADSB-out function. I feed GPS positional info from a Pilotaware unit which is directly wired into the transponder and has it's own dedicated power supply. A professional avionics engineer was involved in this so no "explosion in Maplins" thank you........
Thus I am visible to all ATC units with seconadry radar, and other aircraft that can receive my ADSB transmission. Using PAW means that I can receive ADSB from other traffic, as an aid to my VFR "see and avoid" principal, and have had numerous encounters where it has proved it's worth as an aid. Just to correct a bad piece of fake news from the OP, the forthcoming met uploads from Pilotaware are standard Metars with visibility in nautical miles as is usual in the UK. The colour coding proposed has absolutely nothing to do with military operations - many light aircraft pilots will have no knowledge of RAF procedures anyway. |
Originally Posted by Hollman
(Post 10853909)
@Cpl Cott, My modest machine is not transponder equipped, so I am looking at SkyEcho 2 for Electronic Conspicuity (as it is the mandated standard). I fly in North Yorkshire, and would like to be seen by the various RAF aircraft in the area - do you know which fleets do 'push out ADS-B', and or receive it?
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@Cpl Clott. Thanks for the list - so it seems that BAe146, CH47, Griffin, Puma, Tutor, BBMF, Rivet Joint, Shadow, are not ADS-B equipped. Nor are Hawk T1/T2 or Typhoon which are frequently in the area.
@pba_target. I agree. Although I want ADS-B and Flarm-in (there are plenty of gliders around here) I'm more interested in SkyEcho's ADS-B emissions, as I'd like to be seen, especially by the occasional fast movers. I have no idea whether or not Leeming, Topcliffe or Linton have ADS-B Surveillance capability, or for that matter whether the regional airport zone/approach units do and can see me for traffic reporting purposes. |
Originally Posted by Hollman
(Post 10855329)
@Cpl Clott. Thanks for the list - so it seems that BAe146, CH47, Griffin, Puma, Tutor, BBMF, Rivet Joint, Shadow, are not ADS-B equipped. Nor are Hawk T1/T2 or Typhoon which are frequently in the area.
@pba_target. I agree. Although I want ADS-B and Flarm-in (there are plenty of gliders around here) I'm more interested in SkyEcho's ADS-B emissions, as I'd like to be seen, especially by the occasional fast movers. I have no idea whether or not Leeming, Topcliffe or Linton have ADS-B Surveillance capability, or for that matter whether the regional airport zone/approach units do and can see me for traffic reporting purposes. |
Hollman Yes, but mods are in the pipeline for the majority that you list unless they are soon up for the chop. Many have Extended Squitter Mode S or Mode 5 that just needs wiring to the GPS. As ever, sounds easy but is expensive... :ok:
Also, your ADS-B emission may well be rebroadcast on JTIDS/Link16/MIDS as a track, so others may well see you that hasn’t been listed. The good news about these datalinks is that they are ‘nodeless’ and don’t need to rely upon ground infrastructure to share their combined picture between aircraft. So you may be quite surprised who can see you. The bottom line is to poke out Electronic Conspicuity that is ICAO standardised and not from the ‘explosion in a Maplins shop’ devices that BEagle has described. It sounds like ETOPS has the best idea in using a Mode S to give ADS-B Out but using Pilot Aware for ADS-B In. Although there are cheaper amateur built devices like Stratux - that could cost you less than £50 with no subscription to receive ADS-B. I’ve used SkyEcho and it is good for a low power ADS-B device for transmit and receive, plus also for £20 a year you can buy a licence to de-encrypt FLARM on it too. Completely standalone and no massive antennae like the others - it’s about the size of a fag packet with an 8hr internal battery - also, less than £500, so definitely my choice for now. I even took it for the Rapid Capabilities Office to have a look at. |
LJ - That's reassuring on the mil receive side. When I'm tooling around at 500-3000' at just over a mile a minute :) or so in the open FIR I've often felt a bit exposed. As you note, there a few low-cost solutions for receiving ADS-B, but if your not emitting ADS-B then you're not contributing to the coherent picture and you're fragmenting it further. There are some highly charged debates taking place in the GA forums on EC options, but I see SkyEcho 2 plus Flarm as a positive choice which supports ADS-B out, and it's self-contained nature is what I need in my machine.
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SkyEcho2 with the UAT element switched to FLARM is probably the best option available.
UAT uses an ICAO approved protected aeronautical frequency and is the system of choice at lower levels in the USandA. The UK hasn't invested in either the Recognised Air Picture or ground infrastructure to support it yet, unfortunately. France is quite keen on UAT, but it'll be a long time before Europe has the same FIS-B and TIS-B availability as the US. |
Whilst I favour SkyEcho with ADS-B as it is the approved protocol operating on an approved frequency, I note that PAW is hard over on its argument that they will not support ADS-B out on the premise that the frequency does not have the capacity to handle the volume of ADS-B traffic that would result from all potential users utilising it. I have no idea to what extent that is true, but PAW pressing ahead with an unprotected frequency and bespoke protocol, looks like wishful thinking - however much I respect their efforts to achieve a UK EC solution.
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pressing ahead with an unprotected frequency and bespoke protocol |
ETOPS - you're doing more extensive flying than me, and I recognise that you've equipped yourself comprehensively to do it. I'm just exposing my thoughts on which single piece of EC kit I will go for, and since SkyEcho both emits and receives ADS-B, that is the one I choose for my needs. I appreciate everyone has different views on the subject and have been interested to hear them. PAW are clearly making great progress and I hope that somehow an integrated EC solution can be achieved.
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Originally Posted by Hollman
(Post 10855965)
ETOPS - you're doing more extensive flying than me, and I recognise that you've equipped yourself comprehensively to do it. I'm just exposing my thoughts on which single piece of EC kit I will go for, and since SkyEcho both emits and receives ADS-B, that is the one I choose for my needs. I appreciate everyone has different views on the subject and have been interested to hear them. PAW are clearly making great progress and I hope that somehow an integrated EC solution can be achieved.
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Originally Posted by chevvron
(Post 10851589)
Discussion on another forum which is not allowed to be mentioned on here regarding an 'automaatic' weather report feed to aircraft which uses a 'colour state' system.
The colour states reported are totally unlike the system used here, it being an American system giving vis. in statute miles and using only 4 'colour states' starting with 'green' as the best weather and having no 'white' or 'yellow 1/2'.. You can view the colour states used at www.aviationweather.gov//metar/help?page=plot I've pointed out this is a potential flight safety hazard' I don't even know if the system has been approved by the CAA. It's a safety device, even if you don't like it, IT IS an adjunct to see and avoid, and providing free in-flight weather when there's no FIS-B and TIS-B in Europe. OK, you don't like the colour scheme, but your hobby shouldn't be so destructive/dismissive of positive developments for safety in GA. peace, move on and grow. I've not been here for a few years, a la Kennedy Steve: 'C'YA' |
Originally Posted by neilmurg
(Post 10862804)
That's disappointing Che>>ron.
It's a safety device, even if you don't like it, IT IS an adjunct to see and avoid, and providing free in-flight weather when there's no FIS-B and TIS-B in Europe. OK, you don't like the colour scheme, but your hobby shouldn't be so destructive/dismissive of positive developments for safety in GA. peace, move on and grow. I've not been here for a few years, a la Kennedy Steve: 'C'YA' |
Why?
Originally Posted by chevvron
(Post 10863014)
I was referring only to the introduction of a different airfield colour state system compared to the one which already exists in the UK; the other features of Pilotaware are of no concern to me personally, however what should be of some concern is the amount of information fed to the pilot via Pilotaware; some pilots might concentrate on this and forget to look out of the window and thus not see an aircraft approaching which is not emitting any type of ellectronic conspicuity.
Some of the other posts on this thread come across as what I take to be trolling, if I understand that term correctly. Objecting to Pilot Aware being a young company in the same way that Microsoft was a young company when Bill Gates was tinkering in his garage with components from Radio Shack or RS or a US Maplins is not a reasoned assessment of anything. Kind regards, J |
CAPS_pin_removed and neilmurg - can you flourish us with your credentials to post here on a forum that is:
A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here. |
Objecting to Pilot Aware being a young company in the same way that Microsoft was a young company when Bill Gates was tinkering in his garage with components from Radio Shack or RS or a US Maplins is not a reasoned assessment of anything. |
Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10892455)
CAPS_pin_removed and neilmurg - can you flourish us with your credentials to post here on a forum that is:
:hmm: |
Originally Posted by Easy Street
(Post 10892484)
This is not a reasoned argument unless you can point us to an example of early Microsoft products being marketed for deployment in environments where safety certification applies.
Personally I am not familiar with the 'safety certification' process for Pilot Away, Sky Echo etc. |
Originally Posted by CAPS_pin_removed
(Post 10892547)
You need to direct that comment to the person who made the original post.
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Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10892819)
I believe the OP is an ex-Service Air Trafficker and also Air Cadet Gliding Instructor as a reservist in later years?? Both yours and Neil Murg’s posts stand out as folks that have been on Pprune for some time but don’t seem to have posted here before. So it looks kind of odd that you chip in on a military discussion forum in defence of a piece of cheap kit that many mil operators have seen and don’t like due to it not transmitting a signal that any of them are ever likely to detect. Now ADS-B Out is a different matter and many types will detect that via various means. As for introducing your own bespoke weather colour codes - well that just beggars belief!
It isn't clear to me what the objection to Pilot Aware (PA) really is. The OP complains about metar colours. I thought PA provided a feed and the display device and software managed the rendering, eg SkyDemon on an iPad or whatever. Either way I will go back to PA and ask them if they can influence this and suggest conforming to the standard you recommend. I hope to avail of this feature in due course. I presume however that military pilots will not actually be relying on Pilot Aware for metars in flight so I wonder why the OP chose to comment here. If, as you say, the OP is involved in gliding then that person should be the first to embrace with enthusiasm Pilot Aware and anything like it rather than attack it on any forum. Pilot Aware is Flarm capable and invaluable anywhere gliders may be encountered. You dismiss Pilot Aware as 'cheap'. With the greatest respect I can't help thinking that calling Pilot Aware cheap is a luxury you can afford because the tax payer funds your flying. For the rest of us cheap translates as affordable. If Pilot Aware is objectionable by virtue of being affordable then I think it stands guilty as accused. Finally, I hear what you say about ADS-B. No argument, would be great if it had it. I believe it detects ADS-B so if you are transmitting as you scream down the valley low level in your typhoon (yep, I'm jealous as hell) then at least the situation is better than no Pilot Aware or similar in use. Surely you would prefer it that way? Blue skies and tail winds to all. J |
Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10892819)
.... As for introducing your own bespoke weather colour codes - well that just beggars belief!
The colour coding proposed has absolutely nothing to do with military operations - many light aircraft pilots will have no knowledge of RAF procedures anyway." |
Originally Posted by CAPS_pin_removed
(Post 10892934)
Please see above from ETOPS: "Just to correct a bad piece of fake news from the OP, the forthcoming met uploads from Pilotaware are standard Metars with visibility in nautical miles as is usual in the UK.
The colour coding proposed has absolutely nothing to do with military operations - many light aircraft pilots will have no knowledge of RAF procedures anyway." |
Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10892819)
I believe the OP is an ex-Service Air Trafficker and also Air Cadet Gliding Instructor as a reservist in later years?? Both yours and Neil Murg’s posts stand out as folks that have been on Pprune for some time but don’t seem to have posted here before. So it looks kind of odd that you chip in on a military discussion forum in defence of a piece of cheap kit that many mil operators have seen and don’t like due to it not transmitting a signal that any of them are ever likely to detect. Now ADS-B Out is a different matter and many types will detect that via various means. As for introducing your own bespoke weather colour codes - well that just beggars belief!
I was an Air Cadet glider pilot providing air experience flights to hundreds of cadets, declining the chance to become an instructor due to work commitments but after being commisioned in the RAFVR(T) (1979 to 1998) I also became a Wing Gliding Liaison Officer. When I learnt that 'Pilot Aware' were providing a 'colour state' system which was radically different to the established military system in the UK, I decided (as ATCOs do) that in the interests of flight safety, I would alert military aircrew to this via a military forum . The 2 persons who seem to object took this as if I were saying the whole of Pilot Aware systems were rubbish however I have made it perfectly clear at #24 that this is not so. |
Absolutely brilliant news to see that the "Used Car Salesman" :ugh: has been awarded an OBE in recognition to his contribution to Aviation Safety ..Well done Keith!!
https://www.flyer.co.uk/obe-for-pilo...keith-vinning/ With the ATOM grid network now in place and growing there'll be a lot more to come from the Pilotaware team aside from this extremely useful METAR feature! |
Originally Posted by Airways B
(Post 10902583)
Absolutely brilliant news to see that the "Used Car Salesman" :ugh: has been awarded an OBE in recognition to his contribution to Aviation Safety ..Well done Keith!!
https://www.flyer.co.uk/obe-for-pilo...keith-vinning/ With the ATOM grid network now in place and growing there'll be a lot more to come from the Pilotaware team aside from this extremely useful METAR feature! Kind of odd to get a gong for selling your wares, though, isn’t it? Is it because he is one of Shapps’ stooges? :} |
Corporal Clott - what a thoroughly unpleasant thing to say. :rolleyes:
The Pilotaware system quite clearly has significant flight safety benefits, and the award is well-deserved. |
The Pilotaware system quite clearly has significant flight safety benefits, and the award is well-deserved. As for business leaders getting gongs. Have a read of https://www.bmmagazine.co.uk/in-busi...warded-an-obe/ to see what the normal standards are. I would agree with Clott here, in that there is normally a significant charity effort, or an effort to increase social mobility through job creation, to qualify. I also hear that the inventor of sky demon got a gong too, I would also offer that such companies don’t really create lots of socially mobile jobs and I’m not hearing about charitable effort, then one wonders what these gongs were actually for? Building a Raspberry Pi ADS-B receiver or some electronic flight bag software is hardly a world-leading and inspiring effort, is it? There are literally dozens of similar products available. So the common link, as Clott points out, is that clown Shapps (the chap that tried to deceive the world by changing his name to Michael Green - https://www.theguardian.com/politics...keter-while-mp) who can only be the driving force behind this as minister for transport? With so many others giving their time for free to the world of general aviation safety (like the people that deliver the safety evenings on behalf of the CAA for travel expenses in their free time, or those in the Light Aircraft, Gliding and Microlight Assocs that give masses of their time for free for the benefit if others’ safety) then the sudden appearance of such awards looks highly suspicious. I also heard that Shapps, as a GA pilot, uses at least one of these products. My personal view has always been that these gongs should be awarded for significant effort outside their normal place of work. Like the footballer Rashford’s holding of the Government to account for feeding children struggling to be fed. That is inspirational. Bringing out another ADS-B receiver or electronic flight bag is not, in my opinion. |
I think you'll find that Pilotaware operates on a 'not for profit' basis . All monies raised from the sales of units is ploughed back into improvements and providing the hardware to build the ATOM Grid network to do their bit for improving light aviation safety.
Deserved of an honorable award IMO |
Originally Posted by The B Word
(Post 10892455)
CAPS_pin_removed and neilmurg - can you flourish us with your credentials to post here on a forum that is:
:hmm: I think you are doing yourself and the forum a disservice here. Yes it is in military forum but then again you do get overlap in both the military and civil world, and what was actually brought up is a piece of civilian equipment in a military forum, so you would’ve expected reasonably that civilians using this equipment or planning to use this equipment would be interested in and wishing to comment in the debate. After all, they are probably the ones with the experience in using it, and can bring a different complexion to the discussion. This is a two way street, you will also find questions in the civil forums where military issues might come up and you would probably comment on those as he has here. You’ve got to have a bit of leeway and give-and-take when dealing with subjects like this, after all the main purpose of it is FlightSafety and I think everyone would agree that has to be objective, both civil and military. |
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