Why do we have QRA anyway?
 

After the farce at EGOV on Monday, they may as well scrap the entire operation at Scampton, and Boulmer, do away with QRA and AEW, it's not working, and nobody seems to care, so why keep spending **** loads of money on it?

If a job's worth doing etc.

​​​​​​​

What farce at Valley?

Well, they ARE scrapping the operation at Scampton...


You may need to elaborate a little more if you want any replies/reactions.

I'm going to bite...

Not much you can do if someone gets airborne in their own aircraft, flies in Class G airspace, doesn't talk to anyone (because they don't need to), calls up ATC without response (because it was closed) and then decides to land at RAF Valley anyway....

If someone steals an aircraft/hijacks/enters UK airspace without permission/a flightplan on the other hand.... it is passed on to the people who need to know.

If you don't know the details etc.

Warren, there is a lot to be said to make the case for retaining QRA, however, as a short answer could be filed under you don't want to find out you need it in a hurry after you've got rid of it. Not knowing about the Valley incident it sounds like anyone of a myriad incidents where a light aircraft has slipped through and landed. When I was stationed at Gatow in the Summer of 1987, we had a young German chap called Mathias Rust, he flew from Helsinki all the way through the Soviet APVO air defence screen in a light kite and landed in Red Square and lived to tell the tale.

There was another case of someone, another young German lad I recall, landed at Gatow from East Germany. Neither side came to any extreme conclusion that QRA was a waste of time, the number of Soviet Long Range Reconnaissance patrol aircraft intercepted, essentially, by the Leuchars wing through the 1960s to the 80s was the other end of the QRA story. Today it still serves to ensure that the Russian Air Force are met somewhere over the North Atlantic by Typhoons rather than gaining the opportunity to land at Prestwick.

FB

The UK does not have AEW as such. No 8 Sqn at Waddington is the UK Component of the NAEW&C Force and the Sentry is tasked by NATO as part of this NAEW&C Force: any UK Sentry tasking has to be requested through NATO. As such, there is no AEW aircraft on QRA in the UK.

I'd just assumed that news had got round exactly how bad MFTS is*, so some well intentioned soul had gone up to try and help out.......... I think even Vladimir is feeling sorry for the Valley studes - can probably expect a Bear to be parked on VAS when they pitch up to work on 1 Sep.

This is the rumour doing the jungle drums on Whatsapp....

A Pilatus PC-12 registration N412MD departed Fairoaks to fly to RAF Valley. RAF Valley was closed (bank holiday Monday) with work in progress scheduled on RWY19 barrier and families on the periphery of the airfield. At 1250L the ac called Valley Tower freq several times (reported by Valley Aviation Society) then landed on RWY19 and parked at ASP 5 (adjacent to the beach). The Fire Section noted the aircraft and responded, thinking the aircraft was in distress. Having confirmed that the aircraft was not in distress, the Pilot was verbally held at the ac steps by the Fire Crew Manager. At 1300L the MPGS attended and North Wales Police (NWP) were informed. The Pilot informed the Crew Manager that he had flown from London to go to the beach. When informed that this was a military airfield and that the coronavirus restrictions were still present in Wales the pilot stated that ‘it was ok, because he had it 2 months ago’.

The Pilot stated that he had located the airfield on Google Earth and noted from Wikipedia that Anglesey Airport served civilian traffic. The RAFP arrived at ASP5 and searched the ac for any other occupants. The pilot was the only person on board and there was nothing of a suspicious nature on the ac. The Pilot’s details were recorded. A/OC Ops Sqn informed the pilot that he did not have the authority to leave the airfield until it opened at 0800L on 26 May 20. The Pilot stated that he was leaving anyway. A/OC Ops Sqn and the Crew Manager elected to not block the aircraft and let it depart. At 1415L the aircraft departed to Fairoaks.

*allegedly

You sure it wasn’t Dom visiting another relative or two 🤭

Makes me think A/OC Ops has demonstrated their unsuitability for advancement. N412MD and its pilot should have experienced every inconvenience possible, including the pilot being escorted off the airfield and the aircraft being boxed in by 4 bowsers until the it was convenient for the RAF to receive landing fees, sometime late Wednesday afternoon probably.

Words fail....... :ugh:

I wonder if Oc Ops managed to rustle up a pack lunch from the mess for his return journey... Talk about lax security..

A PC-12 is a reasonably pricey piece of kit for someone to be flying solo.
Wonder who the pilot was - may be someone wealthy and well known?
Arrogance and lack of preparation or just not giving a sh1t...

Love the idea that someone is flying about in a PC-12 and getting his navigation information from wikipedia and google earth

On a slight different tack I wonder why we QRA each time the Russians come south.

what would be wrong with sometimes we scramble to meet them as far north as possible. Other times we launch as they get near the UK. And often we sit on our bum and ignore them.

doesn't say anything different about our capability or intentions.

in NATO in the 80s it was called flexible response

typerated,

Are you seriously proposing that the UK totally ignores an unidentified radar trace approaching the UK air defence region, abandon any pretence at a recognised air picture in the area ,and just let anyone roam about? For a start I would expect that would be a NATO obligation not met, and then there would be the Daily Mail headlines, and then the Pprune outrage...

More importantly, was the pillock pilot charged landing fees?
:E

All of the above, but mostly the former and the latter I suspect.

Looking at his flight track on FR24 back to Fairoaks, he took an interesting route back once departed Valley.....including an interesting 180 deg turn over Caernarfon town.......and then another 180 over the sea to track back over North Wales.

Ah! memories of the old Ex REDCAN when the Shackleton used to simulate an aircraft defecting from behind the Iron Curtain and landing unannounced at some poor unsuspecting airfield. One wonders if it needs to be resurrected? (The exercise - not the Shackleton).

I remember Gary Numan being held in the guardroom at Odiham having been arrested by the RAF plods after setting off on his round the world flight and landing at Odi instead of Lasham on his first stop for fuel... not a good start and I believe he never finished the trip.

Looks like he did a touch and go at Caernarfon after finding Valley a tad unwelcoming!

Indeed, Headline: BRYLCREAM BOYS CAUGHT NAPPING!

Yesterday the RAF failed to respond to a potential attack on the country, Fighter Jets failed to scramble etc etc etc!

FB

A great story. Wasn’t there an old saying about the Russkies should invade on a Friday afternoon or a bank holiday as no one would be at work? I’d always assumed it was a joke. In this case, would it had made a difference if it had been a Russian registered aircraft or had red stars painted on it? Or would detaining the pilot in that case be defined as “racist” in 21st century Britain?

That guy was just taking the p1$$ surely.

That sort of aeroplane is not operated by your average PPL type person. And it can't just operate out of your average small airfield.

He knew exactly what he was doing, he'd decided to fly to Valley and land there for a walk on the beach.

He knew that likely the airfield would be shut and probably unmanned on a bank holiday.

He also knew he could bluff his way out of trouble with your average Ops Officer and fire cover person.

I'd like to know who he was and his background..........................

If it's true of course.

Arc

But of course by the time we intercept them, they have already been trailed by our NATO allies, so they are hardly "unidentified" , and as far as gaining an understanding of the air picture, I would suggest we have this before the QRA aircraft are launched. Generating Daily Mail headlines and snapshots for the family album would in fact appear to be about the only tangible benefits from the majority of launches. By all means keep our skills sharp, but in this day and age, there is no substantive reason to go chasing every Bear, IMHO.

Which bit of the story are you questioning being true?

As its quite clear that an aircraft with that reg, did indeed fly from Fairoaks to Valley, and later returned from Valley to Fairoaks on that day.

Please tell me this was an “ N “ registered pilot with little knowledge of UK procedure ?

reminds me of when Tom cruise took off in his baron from Denham , and said he was turning left direct to MID... arrgghhhh

I'm not sure why people are getting so hot under the collar about QRA. It would be unusual for a track of interest requiring a Q launch to originate from just south-west of London, its ID will have been known from the time it left Fairoaks, and it will have been in the system because it was squawking (hence the FR24 trace). Of more interest, at least to the CAA, will be why this individual set off for Valley without establishing that it was open, and without the PPR tick. Come to think of it, as he was operating an N-reg aircraft he presumably has an FAA licence, so they may be interested too.

Correct call from A/OC Ops not to block the departure, which would only have led to more trouble, and the landing fees will no doubt be collected at some stage.

As for why this man decided to land at Valley, perhaps he didn't see the "This is a prohibited place..." signs from the air. Having allegedly had the virus, perhaps he just flew there to test his vision? That would explain everything, and would make it a very reasonable and legal action too.

This airframe used to be G-ILMD before moving to the US register as N412MD. It would not surprise me if this was a convenience change of state of registration, and the aircraft is still being used by the same person. See https://siteapps.caa.co.uk/g-info/ for the details. Just a guess of course.

You know too much - it must be YOU!

And it can't just operate out of your average small airfield: I assume you wrote that to throw us off the scent? I've seen PC-12 operate routinely out of average GA fields; their short landing performance has to be seen to be believed. But you knew that already... ;) Just fess up!

And then , of course, google can tell you a whole lot more. ;)

As can the FR24 playback of its previous most recent flight...

Can it ever!!!

Nah, he's just a member of the Durham Air Force. Nothing to see here, move on now............................. Said the PM defending his wingman on a legal and acceptable mission.

Well, if any man and his Pilatus can just lob in with impunity we might as well pull down the perimeter fence, dispense with any guard function and turn the MGR into a coffee shop ..... :confused:

Green Flash,

Oh come on! You are sounding like a Daily Mail headline! I would imagine that this exact same scenario could have played out at any second line RAF Training unit in any year from the fifties to today. The airfield was closed, shut, and we are in the middle of a lock down. Add the fact that the unit is largely contractorised and I simply do not think there is an issue here.

A/OC Ops Sqn informed the pilot that he did not have the authority to leave the airfield until it opened at 0800L on 26 May 20. The Pilot stated that he was leaving anyway. A/OC Ops Sqn and the Crew Manager elected to not block the aircraft and let it depart. At 1415L the aircraft departed to Fairoaks.

Said he was leaving anyway.
😂😂😂
Love it, great story!!

Looking at G-INFO is this the owner? (removed)

Anyway, he will have broken the UK ANO Legislation in several instances. So he can expect prosecution by the UK CAA and possibly US FAA too.

So did the guy break the law at any point?

At risk of dragging the thread back to the OP (Mr Warren Peace ) Would you really do away with the QRA assets that you rely on (even if you can't acknowledge as such) to keep UK airspace safe 24/7? Do you not think that posting on such a forum would potentially feel like you are doing a disservice to the men and women that undertake this task on a daily basis? There was no need to intercept this aircraft, it took off from the UK, flew a flightplan (of sorts) and was only guilty of being an idiot, not a threat. You, on the other hand, by using this event to throw into question the requirement or commitment of our QRA assets/personnel, should hang your head in shame and the less you are seen on this forum the better, frankly.

RAF Valley: Unauthorised landing and take-off
 

It seems that last Monday, 25 May, a PC-12 was flown from Fairoaks to RAF Valley, which was closed, and landed. Pilot wanted to go on beach. Purpose of flight was in breach of Welsh COVID-19 regulations. Despite being advised that he was not to depart until the airfield opened the next day, pilot departed and flew back to Fairoaks..

https://www.pprune.org/military-avia...ra-anyway.html