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-   -   75th Anniversary Operation Market Garden (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/625700-75th-anniversary-operation-market-garden.html)

etudiant 23rd Sep 2019 21:00


Originally Posted by ExAscoteer (Post 10577483)
6 pounders carried in Horsas, 17pounders carried in Hamilcars.

Actually the PIAT was surprisingly effective (being able to penetrate upto 4" of armour) and it didn't produce a backblast, unlike the Bazooka, which lent to its use for FIBUA.The main problems with it were recoil and the difficulty in cocking it.

No real evidence for its effectiveness that I know of, but the basic concept of using a small high pressure charge to push a larger lump of (possibly shaped charge) explosives to the target seems plausible.
The launcher was a lump unfortunately, think this is where the German Panzerfaust equivalents were much more practical. Of course, the Panzerfaust could not be reloaded afaik, so perhaps the UK bean counters saw the PIAT as more cost effective...

India Four Two 23rd Sep 2019 22:48


but the basic concept of using a small high pressure charge to push a larger lump of (possibly shaped charge) explosives to the target seems plausible.
... plus a 200 pound main spring, that you re-cocked with your feet!


etudiant 23rd Sep 2019 23:17


Originally Posted by India Four Two (Post 10577726)
... plus a 200 pound main spring, that you re-cocked with your feet!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk_vS-VdYas

I owned one of those back in earlier days, cocking it was a doddle. Any fit yeoman could do it.

India Four Two 24th Sep 2019 01:04

How many Panzers did you bag? :E


etudiant 24th Sep 2019 05:58


Originally Posted by India Four Two (Post 10577790)
How many Panzers did you bag? :E



None, the projectiles were hard to find in New Jersey.

diginagain 24th Sep 2019 10:34


Originally Posted by etudiant (Post 10577884)
None, the projectiles were hard to find in New Jersey.

They were hard to find in Arnhem, too. :)

ExAscoteer 24th Sep 2019 11:40


Originally Posted by etudiant (Post 10577662)
No real evidence for its effectiveness that I know of, but the basic concept of using a small high pressure charge to push a larger lump of (possibly shaped charge) explosives to the target seems plausible.

It fired a 2.5lb shaped charge warhead. There is plenty of evidence for its effectiveness once the initial problems with accuracy and warhead fusing were sorted out.

For eg there were 6 VCs awarded to PIAT operators which included killing Pazer IVs and at least one Panther.

During the Normandy campaign it was assessed that 7% of all German tanks destroyed by British forces were taken out using the PIAT (compared to 6% taken out by aircraft using RPs).

Furthermore a 1944/45 Canadian Army survey ranked the PIAT as the number one most “outstandingly effective” weapon, followed by the Bren gun.

Asturias56 24th Sep 2019 12:48

I hefted one in a museum a while back

IMHO you deserve a VC for firing the beast never mind hitting anything

It's a monstrosity................

hoodie 24th Sep 2019 13:12


Originally Posted by etudiant (Post 10577662)
No real evidence for its effectiveness that I know of

An example from Arnhem could be that of Maj Robert Henry Cain VC

diginagain 24th Sep 2019 16:38

PIAT in use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INa1...ature=youtu.be

Asturias56 25th Sep 2019 07:34


Originally Posted by etudiant (Post 10577884)
None, the projectiles were hard to find in New Jersey.

as were Tiger tanks.....

Asturias56 25th Sep 2019 07:36


Originally Posted by diginagain (Post 10578475)


I doubt it - I understood it had to be fired from a prone position as the recoil would knock you back yards and do immense damage to you

Wensleydale 25th Sep 2019 08:29


Originally Posted by Asturias56 (Post 10578261)
I hefted one in a museum a while back

IMHO you deserve a VC for firing the beast never mind hitting anything

It's a monstrosity................

Jeremy Clarkson's late father in law won a VC at Arnhem for his inspiration to the troops. His party trick was walking out into the open and firing a PIAT from the hip at German armour at close range.


Arclite01 25th Sep 2019 08:39

I always think the PIAT was a typically English looking solution to a particular problem, large chunks of angle iron, designed to be built in a garden shed by someone who had been told what a bazooka looked like but had never seen one. And then paint the finished item green.................:)

The projectile itself was actually reasonably effective against the side and rear armour of most tanks. Front sloping or ERA - almost a waste of time. Pretty heavy to carry too - anyone who has had to heft the 84 around will understand that particular problem...................

Arc

ExAscoteer 25th Sep 2019 10:52


Originally Posted by Arclite01 (Post 10578949)
The projectile itself was actually reasonably effective against the side and rear armour of most tanks. Front sloping or ERA - almost a waste of time.
Arc

No ERA during WWII. The major defences against a shaped charge were (as you say) sloped armour, and spaced armour (think StuG III and StuG IV side-plates).

Arclite01 25th Sep 2019 11:27


Originally Posted by ExAscoteer (Post 10579074)
No ERA during WWII. The major defences against a shaped charge were (as you say) sloped armour, and spaced armour (think StuG III and StuG IV side-plates).

Apologies meant spaced armour (doh - brain freeze)

Arc

Wander00 25th Sep 2019 14:04

Wensleydale - weren't Maj Cain VC and Clarkson's F-I-L the same chap, and nobody in the family knew about the VC until a few years ago

Wensleydale 25th Sep 2019 15:10


Originally Posted by Wander00 (Post 10579214)
Wensleydale - weren't Maj Cain VC and Clarkson's F-I-L the same chap, and nobody in the family knew about the VC until a few years ago

the name escaped me, but I believe so. Clarkson stated that he did not know about the VC until after his FiL's death.

ExAscoteer 25th Sep 2019 16:13

Frances Catherine Cain (daughter of Maj Robert Henty Cain VC) married Jeremy Clarkson in 1993 as his second wife. They divorced in 2014.

goofer3 25th Sep 2019 18:56

Another Arnhem Dakota story from the EDP; https://www.edp24.co.uk/features/sur...ttle-1-6282266


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