Australia should nuke up
 

Interesting little debate going on down here.
Hugh White - quite a respected Govt advisor - has just written a book saying Oz needs to ask itself the question again whether it needs a nuclear deterrent.
For those who can't be bothered to read his carefully worded and soundly reasoned book he's essentially saying:

• Uncle Sam can't be relied on anymore for the nuclear umbrella
• The geopolitical picture is changing more quickly than at any time in the past 50 years
• The speed of military technological development is unprecedented
• China cannot be trusted to be benign

He's suggesting Oz may need to consider a lift to 3 per cent GDP defence spending, a minimal retaliation SLBM force - 24 subs as opposed to the current 12 Collins successors, more JSFs.
Now - before you all jump down my throat - yes - i know - we can't even organise a working broadband network, or agree on coal, wind, solar etc.
But it's an interesting debate... even if I have to ignore muppets like Helen Caldicott surfacing again.
And it's dredged up all the John Gorton era stuff - how Gorton told Dean Rusk he didn't trust the Yanks - and started to build the Jervis Bay reactor etc, etc.
I took the kids to see the foundations when we were down there watching whales - I'm a lot of fun like that!
Personally, I think White is correct.
We're going to be in a world of pain in 20-30 years unless someone makes some hard decisions.
Hopefully by that time - I'll be in some old folks home, shouting at the TV...

I agree with Hugh White. We need to be looking ahead, to a world where the USA isn't the worlds biggest stick.

Right.......... so in a world where the West is trying to stop nuclear proliferation, a new Cold War and arms race, you think Aus should just "nuke up"?

And what would we say to Iran and North Korea. "It's ok, Australia needs nukes and can be trusted"...

If OZ feels they are needed, Iran and North Korea are irrelevant, Aussies will make their own decisions based on their perceived threat level. Where has softly, softly got US anywhere with those two nations. Go for it I say,

In this case "Jaw, Jaw allows time to prepare for War, War.. If you haven't noticed, the world is proliferating while we are sleeping. Anyway we could do with a bit of forward support in that region if only to balance out our own short comings.

IG

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On the contrary, I think it has been quite remarkable how few nations have sought 'the bomb' over the years.

I also think it is quite remarkable that there has not been a pure first world war since 1945. Sure plenty of conflicts, but nothing like previous centuries. I do think nuclear deterrence has been part of formula.

No the first world war was definitely 1914-18 ;)

We (us Ozzies) can't even manufacture our own AVTUR to fuel our jets. How anyone in their right mind reckon's we'd develop a home-grown nuclear weapon capability, I have no idea.
We'd probably outsource it to China... :E

How about a joint venture with the UK? When we replace Trident, build one more sub and have that one stationed in the Pacific. Just a thought.

Surely this would only provoke New Zealand to acquire its own deterrent too?

Well - the kiwis are further ahead - they've already developed the duluvery system ;)

The Brits are exactly spending extravagantly for their own defense.....so why ever would anyone think they would spring for defending Aussies!:rolleyes:

The ability of the RAN to operate submarines hasn't been brilliant to date

But I can't see the voters being happy at having missile convoys wandering about the neighborhood................

Seriously tho' what circumstances could happen that would lead an Australian Govt wanting to nuke China?

It's not about "wanting to", it's about being "able to".
Having said that, I'm not a believer that this is necessary...

worth thinking about. Be cheaper and faster than making them here - we could probably could buy them direct off the rack.

Maybe we should look at "Nookular Power" as a more reliable source of electricity - cleaner than coal, no smoke or ash, and it provides an afterglow for 30,000 years. We have our own uranium, and I'm sure Huawei would either have the technology to build it, or be able to steal it from somebody who has.

But nookular weapons - nah.

I think you'd get a better deal from the N Koreans.............

Well my two cents worth.
Blind Freddy can see what's coming.
Just 6000 kms to the north of Australia sits a nation of 1.1bn people with an economy that will be double the size of the US by mid century.
It is nuclear armed, communist run, led by a man who has declared himself ruler for life.
He's 66 now - so we can assume he's going to be around for another 20-30 years.
It's military is rapidly modernising, it is spreading influence throughout Australian politics and academia, threatening the Chinese diaspora, hacking current IT infrastructure and attempting to embed itself in IT future infrastructure.
It's just effectively annexed the South China Sea.
Meanwhile there is every sign that an isolationist, populist and erratic US president will not only be re-elected, but that his ideas will be used by cynical politicians that follow him.
And we are relying on the United States to protect us?
Will we be invaded?
Probably not.
Will we be attacked - or have our nearby interests attacked or threatened and/or annexed - more likely.
Would the US or the UK, or France come to our aid - in my view - not a chance in hell.
All of the above regarding China says both capability - and more importantly - possible intent.
I think what will happen - is that the lucky country (read dumb luck) will continue arguing and hoping for the best, only to wake up in 20 years time and find that it is utterly dictated to by a bellicose and expansionist China.
These things happen very slowly over long periods of time.
And the Australian military is completely wrongly configured to deal with the sorts of threats we'll face.
When you read White's book, it's clear that somewhere in Canberra there are studies that have been done and are being continuously updated on how long it would take for Australia to acquire nuclear weapons.
Firms like Silex have developed some very interesting technology.
I only hope that someone has the foresight to take the threat seriously, and the wick to start acting - but I doubt it.

The Chinese are being extra nice to various Pacific nations, by kindly building ports and an airport, and in return it would be awfully un-neighbourly for that nation to stop the chinese from using such stuff, seeing as how they built it, and all...and the creeping forward of their interests goes on.

Large sections of Sydney have chinese-only apartment blocks - gwailohs are unable to buy them.

At least the Barangaroo casino won't be full of them, since the Crown people were jailed trying to recruit the Whales.

...and I should add - I have nothing against the average Chinese punter.
I think it's the same as the Iranians - good people, led by @rseholes.

Have a glance at the Vanuatu thread. :ok:

Unless things have changed, ALL nuclear weapons in the U.K. arsenal are owned by the U.S.A. and are provided on lease.
I don't know what caveats on usage are included in the lease agreement, but you can be reasonably sure that sub-leasing is prohibited.

"Don’t discard any U.K. input, we respect and remember friendship, our word is our bond, treaties are upheld."

REALLY???? Tell that to the people of Hong Kong, or the Chagos Islands................... and the Czechs and Poles in WW2... and the Ukrainians you handed back in '45...............

Didn't someone say the only reason the sun never set on the British Empire was because God couldn't trust the Brits in the dark.................

Please tell us what you really think, Asturia.

Wow, this proliferation business is worse than I thought . . . :).

I think this is their current delivery system
NZ Nuclear Delivery System

Think you can pretty much substitute most nations here.

People on massive Island in Oceania worried about foreign power using military to gain foothold in country and strip it of its natural resources while disregarding the rights of the people living there.

Then Captain Cook landed.

History just repeats itself so that the decendants find what their ancestors did gets visited on them.