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Originally Posted by BVRAAM
(Post 10428635)
What will be the exact role of the newly formed 12(B) Sqn and soon to be formed IX Squadron at Coningsby and Lossie, respectively?
I read on Faceache just now that apparently they are both going to be Red Air Squadrons, with 12 having the additional commitment of providing support to the Qataris while they get established with the Typhoon. When SDSR15 was published, and it was announced that Tranche 1 Typhoons would be retained for air defence, I was under the impression this would be for QRA purposes, since they don't possess any A-G kit that I know of. I don't remember reading they would be used as Red Air assets for the Typhoon frontline. Will they be deployable or are they home commitment only? I'm not "in the know" at all, but I'd imagine the current levels of overall manning, Typhoon Force manning and the training pipeline issues will all be impacting how quickly these additional sqns stand up (or if at all in the case of the 3rd Sqn), though on a positive note IX is clearly forming at Lossie as jets have been noted in the Sqn markings. |
So, what is happening now that ASDOT has been cancelled? Surely there’s a requirement to provide the capabilities that Cobham jets produce? |
Extend the existing Cobham contract?
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Are they able to extend the contract? I’d have thought that the MOD would have wanted some fast air platforms to reduce the reliance/burden on Hawk and Typhoon doing it. |
Originally Posted by NutLoose
(Post 10426568)
OAP |
BV. If I may say, some good posts earlier about specialist pay. :ok: Unfortunately, Military employment terms are soulless, and that extends to your employment at minimum cost, as much as your total expendability as circumstances dictate! :sad: I never found a branch that completely avoided the expendability bit but, the minimum cost thing is only really overcome by those joining within powerful cabales, such as Lawyers, Doctors, Dentists and Religious leaders! Cheers
OAP |
I’m pretty sure that the Lawyers are paid the standard officer rates without any RRP. Just sayin’ :cool: |
Warren Peace When you eat the seedcorn, you are going to be hungry soon. As ever the focus is always around the pilots when their brothers/sisters of the Aircrew gang are also starting to suffer the very same problems. |
Given the parlous state of the training system, wasting assets on red air profiles doesn’t make much sense, especially when those assets can be used for actual training. I think the USAF, USMC and USN have all gone down the route of contract red air especially in the form of fast jets. |
FL
I’m not sure what you mean. Red Air profiles are training. With regard to contracting out, it’s the same guys you need to fly your red air whoever they work for. BV |
Flying Red Air is not training. It’s flying, yes, it’s not training. Moreover, if you use mostly contract Red Air then you aren’t using RAF pilots, who in turn can be flying blue air sorties or training students on the OCU (Typhoon). |
FL
Please reread what I wrote. If you take the time I’m sure you’ll see what I mean. Can you name any civilian red air provider who has not drawn from the ranks of the Air Force it supports? If you can name me a company that trains red air pilots from scratch then I will gladly withdraw my criticism. BV |
You are correct, there are no contract red air fast jet companies that train pilots from day 1. However, the number of pilots required for contract red air is probably not as many as you or I may think. Equally, there are quite a number of pilots that have recently left or about to leave that are more than capable of filling these seats that the Service is losing anyway. This, coupled with the amount of money and assets thrown at providing Red Air I am sure it makes more economical sense to have contract Red Air. |
FL
I’m not saying I disagree with the concept of a civilian red air provider. On the face of it, it seems to work In Canada with Top Aces. I just don’t think you should pretend that it will solve any manning issues. BV |
Originally Posted by Foghorn Leghorn
(Post 10450838)
You are correct, there are no contract red air fast jet companies that train pilots from day 1. However, the number of pilots required for contract red air is probably not as many as you or I may think. Equally, there are quite a number of pilots that have recently left or about to leave that are more than capable of filling these seats that the Service is losing anyway. This, coupled with the amount of money and assets thrown at providing Red Air I am sure it makes more economical sense to have contract Red Air. |
BV, I didn’t pretend in anyway that it was a solution to the manning issues. If you reread my comment slower then you’d understand. What I said was why waste a pilot and MDS providing RAF Fast Jet (FJ) Red Air when that pilot and MDS can be used on Blue Air or, in the case of an OCU, used to generate more training sorties. I found it quite a surprise that the Treasury/DE&S decided to pull the contract when the RAF is trying to grow its combat mass which attracts a concomitant increase in FJ Red Air requirement. This doesn’t even consider the RN whom also require this sort of service. |
FL
I am very tired and have been traveling a long time. I feel like we are arguing the same point and I am confused. Lets just agree to disagree. Or agree to agree. I really don’t know any more! BV |
I disagree with the concept that a uniformed pilot RN or RAF in the Red Air role is ‘wasted’ and they could be flying Blue. I know that you’ll always get the puddles of folk who don’t seem to move on - but circulation is on the whole healthy and probably aids retention; so long as it’s well managed, doesn’t foul your career and quarters are good... If your Red Air people are uniformed you have the opportunity to keep them vibrant and fresh in roles other than the frontline (or whatever we’re calling constant QRA and Simulator time these days!!) If your Red Air work for a contractor - expect to lose folk to the contractor. |
The 527th at Alconbury did a pretty good job of 'Red Air' aggressor work back in the early '80s. Their F5s were hard to spot and very nimble - who remembers hearing "Tracking...tracking...Atoll...Atoll!". Tried to pull one up in the vertical once - and ended up with more AoA units than IAS. Oops!!
During my F-4 course, we had some DACT towards the end. The opposition were a pair of Hunters with 100 gallon tanks flown by 79 Sqn instructors versus our fatigue conserving g-limited Charlie fit jets. Oh how they chuckled! |
Originally Posted by orca
(Post 10451751)
I disagree with the concept that a uniformed pilot RN or RAF in the Red Air role is ‘wasted’ and they could be flying Blue. I know that you’ll always get the puddles of folk who don’t seem to move on - but circulation is on the whole healthy and probably aids retention; so long as it’s well managed, doesn’t foul your career and quarters are good... If your Red Air people are uniformed you have the opportunity to keep them vibrant and fresh in roles other than the frontline (or whatever we’re calling constant QRA and Simulator time these days!!) If your Red Air work for a contractor - expect to lose folk to the contractor. |
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