Originally Posted by Capt Scribble
(Post 10434429)
The fact that the escape manoeuvre had not been practised or demonstrated is yet another red herring. It is not possible for an RAF QFI who taught aerobatics not to know what to do when a vertical manoevre goes wrong. The argument suggests that an experienced low-level aerobatic pilot did not have the knowledge, and possibly skill, to safely escape his predicament if he did not make the ‘gate’ at the top of the loop. Not possible and I would consider it wreckless to pull up for loop without that knowledge. Low speed light aircraft do not use a gate height during low level looping manoeuvres because it is not appropriate with the high pitch rate at the apex and the small radius. Therefore, rigid application of a gate height protocol will not be a familiar procedure for a display pilot whose experience is mainly light aircraft, however experienced he is. I most certainly agree that a pilot who pulls up for a looping manoeuvre at a display and does not have a robust plan of what to do at any stage around the manoeuvre when the airspeed and height are insufficient to continue the manoeuvre safely is indeed being reckless. Ridger, The errors in the pull-up point are because there are many variables (airspeed, wind, angle off the display line, unfamiliar display site etc) and the pilot has to make a purely visual judgement, often with a very shallow sightline angle and, therefore, little plan view perspective. Therefore, it is easy to make a misjudgement. During the pull up more plan view is available aiding judgement and allowing for corrections to be planned. If the roll angle is not varied on the way up then a 'bend' can be used on the vertical down line to help regain positioning. The pitch oscillations following a rapid change in angle of attack are (and you did ask!) caused by a low frequency and only moderately damped short period pitch oscillation, resulting from high pitch inertia and low angle of attack stability. The '70% confidence' comment comes from something that I was told many years ago but I am afraid that I cannot remember the source. However, it is consistent with what I have observed in pilots over many years. The other ~30% is motor skills, hand-eye co-ordination etc. I will admit that this is not a real area of expertise for me and there are others far more knowledgeable than I am on this. |
The RAF teaching for what to do when a vertical manoeuvre goes wrong is to close the throttle and centralise the stick and rudder pedals. |
Originally Posted by beardy
(Post 10434989)
Only when you run out of airspeed.
|
Lomcevak, For me you nail the whole argument in your paragraph about it being reckless to enter a manoeuvre without a plan for the eventuality of being unable to continue safely. |
KenV,
I would humbly suggest that a total of 43 hours on type in 4 years was the "part of the Shoreham tragedy (that) was caused by a lack of time/experience in type by the pilot?". Less than half what a pilot would get on a far more intensive 6-month OCU course, and a fraction of the legal mandated flying (let alone Display) currency for a military Fast Jet pilot. It opens up all sorts of question marks about cognitive failure, recency and currency in my book. I would suggest that flying an airliner for 1000s of hours and displaying light piston aerobatic aircraft is no comparison, and his JP background both in the Service and as a civilian could perhaps muddy the waters further. I don't consider it "handwringing" to question such low currency and overall experience when displaying a powerful jet aircraft at low level in front of the public, a lot like the Carfest accident. I'd shared a coffee with AH a few weeks before the accident - in no way did he come across as a slipshod or cowboy aviator; a little quirky, perhaps, but manifestly not a rip-sh1t. This is why I remain convinced that his lack of familiarity on type, lack of swept wing FJ hours (in recent decades), lack of recency and multiple aircraft types he flew all conspired (perhaps with some transient medical issue) to make him see normality when there was deviation…... |
Low speed light aircraft do not use a gate height during low level looping manoeuvres because it is not appropriate with the high pitch rate at the apex and the small radius. While I haven’t flown FJ, I’m aware that in that case the gate height is also often connected to gate speed - something which does not apply to light aircraft aerobatics. That said, I don’t believe that to say a gate height is not used in low level light aircraft aerobatics is accurate. |
Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK
(Post 10435022)
True, but to the best of my knowledge nothing else has ever been taught. The concept of a rigid gate height protocol for medium level aerobatics in training has never, as far as I am aware, been taught in the RAF. So saying, I am not advocating that this should be taught in flying training because altitude loss during pull through is a function of TAS and so will vary markedly with altitude. |
Originally Posted by Ridger
(Post 10434836)
Well, this is exactly why I asked the question really - I'm interested in seeing any aviation research which has tested the role of confidence in skill based tasks
NATOPS. That program was the result of some research that was mostly written in blood. As to observations, I'll support Lomcevak's point. I'll also point out that it was institutional knowledge before I entered into flight training about four decades ago. If you want to delve into Instructional systems Design, you will find various schools of thought on that constitutes "mastery" and I'll go no further as that takes us well off topic. |
Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK
(Post 10434936)
The RAF teaching for what to do when a vertical manoeuvre goes wrong is to close the throttle and centralise the stick and rudder pedals. That is not an appropriate recovery when a gate height is not achieved during a looping manoeuvre in a display.
Low speed light aircraft do not use a gate height during low level looping manoeuvres because it is not appropriate with the high pitch rate at the apex and the small radius. Therefore, rigid application of a gate height protocol will not be a familiar procedure for a display pilot whose experience is mainly light aircraft, however experienced he is. I most certainly agree that a pilot who pulls up for a looping manoeuvre at a display and does not have a robust plan of what to do at any stage around the manoeuvre when the airspeed and height are insufficient to continue the manoeuvre safely is indeed being reckless. Ridger, The errors in the pull-up point are because there are many variables (airspeed, wind, angle off the display line, unfamiliar display site etc) and the pilot has to make a purely visual judgement, often with a very shallow sightline angle and, therefore, little plan view perspective. Therefore, it is easy to make a misjudgement. During the pull up more plan view is available aiding judgement and allowing for corrections to be planned. If the roll angle is not varied on the way up then a 'bend' can be used on the vertical down line to help regain positioning. The pitch oscillations following a rapid change in angle of attack are (and you did ask!) caused by a low frequency and only moderately damped short period pitch oscillation, resulting from high pitch inertia and low angle of attack stability. The '70% confidence' comment comes from something that I was told many years ago but I am afraid that I cannot remember the source. However, it is consistent with what I have observed in pilots over many years. The other ~30% is motor skills, hand-eye co-ordination etc. I will admit that this is not a real area of expertise for me and there are others far more knowledgeable than I am on this. |
Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50
(Post 10435338)
I'll take that as a "no, Fitts and Posner had nothing to do with aviation." If you want to see the research, I'll offer you a search term that you may pursue if you like.
NATOPS. That program was the result of some research that was mostly written in blood. As to observations, I'll support Lomcevak's point. I'll also point out that it was institutional knowledge before I entered into flight training about four decades ago. If you want to delve into Instructional systems Design, you will find various schools of thought on that constitutes "mastery" and I'll go no further as that takes us well off topic. |
FWIW I believe you may find that the originator of the concept of what is termed the Hierarchy of Competence was the celebrated psychologist Abraham Maslow. He identified four stages of Competence, Stage 1 Unconscious Competence, Stage 2 Conscious Incompetence, Stage 3 Conscious Competence, Stage 4 Unconscious Competence.
Maslow's work was then adapted by just about every training situation you can imagine from business through to medicine and beyond. So aviation must have picked it up somewhere along the way! |
I think Stage 1 is "Unconscious Incompetence,"
|
Originally Posted by Haraka
(Post 10435577)
I think Stage 1 is "Unconscious Incompetence,"
|
This is a fascinating thread but I take issue with one comment:
Low speed light aircraft do not use a gate height during low level looping manoeuvres because it is not appropriate with the high pitch rate at the apex and the small radius. Therefore, rigid application of a gate height protocol will not be a familiar procedure for a display pilot whose experience is mainly light aircraft, however experienced he is. As others have said, it is almost inconceivable that someone with AH's experience would not know how to escape from a whole range of errors. HFD (not ex-mil) |
Originally Posted by LOMCEVAK
(Post 10435022)
True, but to the best of my knowledge nothing else has ever been taught. The concept of a rigid gate height protocol for medium level aerobatics in training has never, as far as I am aware, been taught in the RAF. So saying, I am not advocating that this should be taught in flying training because altitude loss during pull through is a function of TAS and so will vary markedly with altitude. For interest, we do currently teach EFT trainee pilots to check for a minimum IAS once inverted before pitching through the vertical on a 1/2 Cuban 8 and if that minimum speed is exceeded, they should roll out of the manoeuvre and re-commence. We do not teach gate heights, though a nominal height requirement for looping manoeuvres should be known to prevent minimum height busts by pitching through too low. I also displayed a Hunter T7 for about a year and we (the team pilots) deliberately chose not to attempt any looping manoeuvres due to our perception of the risk levels in a low level aerobatic display. Interestingly, as a current RAF pilot with 20+ years on FJ and now current QFI'ing, it took me less than 8 hours on the Hunter, an ac I had never flown before nor had I any experience of low level aerobatics, to get cleared down to 200ft for any manoeuvre (and also formation on any ac and any number of ac) at Public Events. In hindsight, this seems inadequate, though at the time I felt I knew what I was doing and indeed performed safely throughout the season. |
Thanks for the correction Haraka. Either a touch of the Advanced Fuddyitus or perhaps my bl**dy spell checker again!
|
hugh flung_dung and Tay Cough,
Many thanks for your comments about gate heights in low speed aircraft. I have little experience in this end of the performance range but no-one else has ever said to me that they do use them and I certainly have asked many people. For the small amount of low level aerobatics that I have done in light aircraft, for straight loops I have always just used a minimum pull-up speed and pull-up height, and I certainly would never pull-up from flypast minima as I do in more powerful aircraft. However, for planned control inputs for spins etc I most certainly do use minimum heights. This is becoming serious thread drift but I am interested in your thoughts about the time for making a decision to fly an escape manoeuvre at the apex with respect to the high pitch rate, resulting low nose attitude when you start to roll and, in some aircraft, poor roll performance. Happy to go onto PMs if you wish. Capt Scribble, Re your comment I’m sure we are all familiar with the recovery from an ‘Unusual Position’, an expeditious recovery from somewhere you did not want to be, to a position of safety. Not only taught to all RAF pilots but examined in the annual IRT. Useful in all situations from disorientation to aerobatics. |
Originally Posted by Homelover
(Post 10434257)
Err, probably the crashing part? |
Originally Posted by Evalu8ter
(Post 10435029)
KenV,
I would humbly suggest that a total of 43 hours on type in 4 years was the "part of the Shoreham tragedy (that) was caused by a lack of time/experience in type by the pilot?". Less than half what a pilot would get on a far more intensive 6-month OCU course, and a fraction of the legal mandated flying (let alone Display) currency for a military Fast Jet pilot. It opens up all sorts of question marks about cognitive failure, |
Jury’s Findings
Hi Ken, You post with authority. Did the jury really unanimously agree that a CI had occurred and could clearly be attributed to environmental factors - or did they decide (unanimously or by majority) that, given the evidence proposed, a Guilty verdict for 11 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaughter could not be arrived at? A genuine question as I can’t find any transcript of proceedings that would let me know; and I wasn’t there; and as I understand it the open source accounts are not to be relied upon. |
Originally Posted by KenV
(Post 10435876)
The jury concluded that the accident was caused by cognitive impairment, which is totally independent of time/experience in type.
Further, the jury clearly and unanimously decided that a physiological event triggered the cognitive failures in this incident |
The CI issue was simple. There are no medical tests to prove whether it occurred or not. Therefore it might have. Hence a not guilty verdict because the prosecution couldn't prove it hadn't happened.
Whether you think thats a lot of holes in a lot of cheese lining up at a very inopportune time in tragic circumstances, as some may, well thats by the by. It seems like based on the opinion of a lot of experienced aviators here that the lack of time in the jet was certainly an aggrivating factor. Whether or not you consider its reckless and negligent to perform an aerobatic display in an aircraft without the requisite training and knowledge as to do if things go a bit t*ts up, is of course, a seperate matter, which maybe wasn't fully considered. |
The CI issue was simple. There are no medical tests to prove whether it occurred or not. |
KenV, Couple of points if I may. In my experience, cognitive failure is likely exactly when overloaded and capacity sapped - we revert to the familiar (how many times have I used, for example, the wrong downwind checks....Bulldog in a Grob Tutor comes immediately to mind). AH was a low hour,low currency Hunter pilot with much more familiarity with the JP - I can see a distinct possibility he had a JP moment or something akin to it. As for CI being caused by a transient physiological issue, you are right that the court agreed - but only on the high bar of certainty necessary for a guilty verdict for the serious crime he was accused of. I would venture that a lower burden of proof at civil action level may well see a different outcome.... |
Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia? |
Its not quite the same thing, but there is a Medical test for Dementia, the Doctor will ask a series of simple questions then while doing something like checking Blood Pressure will ask the questions again to see if the same answers are forthcoming.
FB |
Originally Posted by Wrathmonk
(Post 10435981)
Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia? I assume it's not as simple as just saying "I don't remember"? Can a scan pick up damage in the relevant part of the brain?
many patients who spend time in an intensive care unit have retrograde amnesia - presumably as a consequence of the precipitating event and the various sedative or analgesic drugs they receive. Caramba |
orca, you ask:
Jury’s Findings
...... Did the jury really unanimously agree that a CI had occurred and could clearly be attributed to environmental factors - or did they decide (unanimously or by majority) that, given the evidence proposed, a Guilty verdict for 11 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaughter could not be arrived at? A genuine question as I can’t find any transcript of proceedings that would let me know; and I wasn’t there; and as I understand it the open source accounts are not to be relied upon. Bearing in mind that the jury (of eleven people) came to a unanimous verdict after about seven hours of consideration, it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecution’s ..... Incidentally, the reason for there being eleven jurors, rather than twelve, was that, on 29 January, one juror fell ill and was taken to hospital by ambulance. She was excused further jury service. airsound |
Originally Posted by airsound
it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecution’s
|
Easy - semantics!
airsound |
Originally Posted by airsound
(Post 10436630)
orca, you ask:
I posted on 27 MarchI suggest that that is all that can be deduced from the jury's verdict. As I presume you know, an English jury's considerations are secret for life, and we are extremely unlikely ever to find out what actually led to their verdicts airsound If we do ever find out what the jury thought in this case, someone has broken the law. |
There’s an immense amount of knowledge and experience on show in this thread - in fact it’s probably a good example of PPRuNe at its best! (Albeit on a tragic subject).
I have some questions that I’d like to put to some of the assembled experts. My queries are best illustrated by reference to a video (one of many) of the flight. Questions:
Time 12:21:56.5 in Figure 11 corresponds with 39 second in the video. How to account for the abrupt power reductions at:
airsound |
Is it possible that the power was being adjusted to provide the anticipated parameters for the next manoeuvre? Is it possible that the anticipated parameters were incorrect for the display aircraft?
|
One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
|
Originally Posted by Wander00
(Post 10438574)
One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
|
Originally Posted by Wander00
(Post 10438574)
One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
As an ATPL holder I tried in vain to understand the Engineering evidence about the autopilot unserviceability. I was lost, and I am sure the Judge and Jury were too. The Judge kept remarking about "The Plane" which made me cringe every time he said it. How the jury (12 "locals" from Uxbridge, if you know what I mean) arrived at their conclusion that he was innocent of one charge but guilty of the other I do not know. Both charges were almost identical. At the time I had the same thoughts as wanderer00 and felt that this should never be allowed to happen again. Alas... |
Originally Posted by 3wheels
(Post 10438796)
I attended the trial of the B747 pilot who nearly hit the Penta Hotel at Heathrow.It was held near West Drayton.
|
Yes he did. A real tradegy all round. |
As an expert witness (in IT forensics) I can confirm that taking any expert knowledge and transferring that to the jury is becoming a bigger and bigger challenge as life becomes more complex but the jury system remains. When training other potential experts, I tell them about my mum who has never used a computer and does not even have a cashpoint card. She can be called for jury duty at any time. She would be as lost in the World of gigabytes, IP addresses, spoofing etc as she would be in the World of fighter jet aerobatics. When giving evidence, I always imagine that my mum is in the jury. We can't assume they know anything. The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required.
|
She would be as lost in the World of gigabytes, IP addresses, spoofing etc as she would be in the World of fighter jet aerobatics. When giving evidence, I always imagine that my mum is in the jury. We can't assume they know anything. The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required. |
All times are GMT. The time now is 15:39. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.