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Military accommodation not fit for animals
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...PIB?li=AAnZ9Ug somethings never change, however the fire risks and the fact they are ignoring them is scandalous, perhaps it is time in light of Greenville to inform these civil servants ignoring the problem both past and present that they will be held responsible on manslaughter charges if in the end injuries happens. |
It’s not civil servants who are to blame. Decisions were made over the last 20 years by senior Service officers to manage the decline of the defence estate and spend the money on projects deemed more important. After alll, what’s going to happen if a building doesn’t get a lick of paint this year? I spent a bit of time building new accommodation for what was the Centre TLB so got to see across the Services. The army’s approach to their soldiers’ accommodation could be described as wilfully negligent, using terms such as ‘well, this accommodation is still better than they would have had at home’ and ‘they get married early and will move into SFA’ or the monumentally short sighted ‘they don’t stay in long’. The Navy approach has always been to encourage their personnel to live away from their hone ports and not to use service accommodation. Indeed, the worst accommodation I saw was at HMMB Clyde, where sewage routinely flooded the single rates accommodation decks. The RAF has, traditionally, placed a big emphasis on good quality and well maintained accommodation. At least it used to. A visit to any station will see how poorly maintained the infrastructure is - and that this neglect has been allowed to happen for decades. New builds are generally related to PFIs and often this technical accommodation has a short design life and lacks any architectural merit. Meanwhile we have the unfit for purpose DIO trying to manage contractors who are infamous for underperforming in the outsourcing world. I visited some some friends who are in SFA in NW London - I was shocked to see the state of their quarter and the estate as a whole. No money had been spent for a very long time; about 1 in 4 houses were abandoned or condemned; there’d been no grounds maintenance on the trees for a similar length of time (causing all sorts of second order issues) and the interior of the houses were a throwback to the 1950s. The kitchens were antiquated;the boilers were very old and grossly inefficient and the bathrooms wholly inadequate in this day and age (a shower being regarded as a luxury..). I really dont don’t know how this mass of dog poo can be turned around. Do we need a Grenfell type incident on a MOD estate before there will be real investment? Perhaps the RAF needs to UDI and look after itself and establish a professional works branch rather than using well meaning but hopelessly ill experienced Admin Officer to administrate the budget? |
Accommodation affects retention too...
Say, RAF Waddington... SAC Joe Bloggs wakes up, no hot water. He is in a non-SLAM block. He walks to work, where he has a brand new building to work in. He does his 8 hours, walks back to the block where the hot water still doesnt work, there is no WiFi and a poor TV signal. Meanwhile at another RAF base down the road, the same type of block that he lives in, this is only used for urgent transit cases and air cadets....everyone else has SLAM. |
This situation is far from new. When I was posted to Middle Wallop in 1985 the MQ we were allocated had two missing windows and the ancient lino tiles covering the entire ground floor were secured using 2" nails which protruded by around 1/4". When I asked the RQMS (a LSL WO2 who was biding his time to demob) what could be done I was told nothing, after all I was only there for a year. We had two children, one aged 2 and one aged 6 months, who we couldn't allow to play in case they injured themselves on the nails. The entire year was spent with plywood nailed over the missing window panes.
That period ignited an increasing desire to leave, consolidated by various degradations of service life and culminating in the Options For Change spending review. NEO |
Folks. Acceptable Accomodation? There is no political will and no public interest in making it so. Our Armed forces have been reduced in numbers so much and have little voice so that nobody out there is interested. Those (of us) that ARE concerned are of course, a dying breed. All the government (of whatever colour) needs to do is delay the rectification until we are all gone...bit like the Brexit thing really. Sad |
The RAF has, traditionally, placed a big emphasis on good quality and well maintained accommodation. At least it used to. Then in spring it would dry out and they’d move new arrivals back in again. The other blocks had one socket a room with a circuit breaker for the block just inside the entrance which you could hear clattering as it approached load so the inhabitants knew to reduce usage. For those who remember “Green Acres” on TV it was similar - but without Zsa Zsa Gabor...... |
Originally Posted by Moi/
(Post 10349445)
Accommodation affects retention too...
Say, RAF Waddington... SAC Joe Bloggs wakes up, no hot water. He is in a non-SLAM block. He walks to work, where he has a brand new building to work in. He does his 8 hours, walks back to the block where the hot water still doesnt work, there is no WiFi and a poor TV signal. Meanwhile at another RAF base down the road, the same type of block that he lives in, this is only used for urgent transit cases and air cadets....everyone else has SLAM. |
As with most of us, I could recount many tales (and have done so previously!) of the utterly **** standard of service accommodation and its woeful management...some of which are frankly laughable.
But I'll resist this once, and merely point out that I think whenurhappy is onto something... Perhaps the RAF needs to UDI and look after itself and establish a professional works branch rather than using well meaning but hopelessly ill experienced Admin Officer to administrate the budget? |
Proper SLAM - ie MOD owned and funded, but maintained under a long term contract by Balfour Beatty - is a good product but it was killed off over 10 years ago, even though £4.5 Bn had been profiled across the Services. The Army pulled out and preferred to do down the ruinously expensive pfi route, resulting in crappy ‘Slam like’ ghettos, and managed with the same derisory mindset. The Head of Accommodation at DIO thought the whole thing was too expensive and eventually pulled the plug. She, of course, got promoted. I think the days of heavily subsidised accommodation of any sort are numbered. Poor accommodation conflated with lifestyle changes and increasing expectations means that an inexorable **** to the private sector will occur - and NAM is wholly inadequate for the task. The concept of living and fighting together will become a distant memory. |
Its almost like you need an organisation to look after estates, run by the MOD - you could call it, say, MOD (PE)?
Googling MoD PE to research my pithy comment above, I came across this article. No wonder the UK has so little money when greedy people are given the opputunity to strip the assets of the nation bare. Scandalous doesn't even begin to cover it. |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 10349470)
The old Boulmer OM back in the 70-80s had a block known as “the swamp”, because it flooded every winter and was routinely condemned as unfit for human habitation. They’d vacate the flooded rooms but those at the back were still above water, you just had to wade down the corridor or get to them. Then in spring it would dry out and they’d move new arrivals back in again. The other blocks had one socket a room with a circuit breaker for the block just inside the entrance which you could hear clattering as it approached load so the inhabitants knew to reduce usage. For those who remember “Green Acres” on TV it was similar - but without Zsa Zsa Gabor...... |
Originally Posted by thunderbird7
(Post 10349547)
Its almost like you need an organisation to look after estates, run by the MOD - you could call it, say, MOD (PE)?
Googling MoD PE to research my pithy comment above, I came across this article. No wonder the UK has so little money when greedy people are given the opputunity to strip the assets of the nation bare. Scandalous doesn't even begin to cover it. The disposal of quarters must be one of the greatest financial rapes of the century; moreover the legacy of the MOD still maintaining and upgrading them (and paying for voids) is fiscal lunacy. |
It’s not just the standard of accommodation either - patchy at best when viewed across the estate - outdated and discriminatory policies are still implemented which alienate people.
I have had several juniors and NCOs approach me in the past year complaining that they are paying accommodation charges despite being homeowners whilst married colleagues have all charges waived. Formal complaints have been made in the hope that the nature of the issue - discrimination - would strike a chord with an MOD hell bent on equality. Instead the MOD has chosen to hide behind technicalities such as complaints being made ‘out of time’ - a 3 month window from the date of the incident, in tris case posting in, being deemed the maximum time allowed. There are other issues such as those in long term relationships but not married or in a legally recognised relationship being forced to make choices between family and job. The entire MOD accommodation system is rotten to th core, both physically and morally and nobody seems willing to do a damn thing about it other than suck teeth, blame predecessors and point to the Future Accommodation Model as being the proverbial cavalry coming to save the day. Given that the FAM trial is already delayed and I would guess will take at least a decade to implement across the MOD, how many more people are we willing to lose before we sort this out. As an organisation we need to hang our heads. People are clearly not our best asset judging by the way they are treated. |
Simple solution to the problem.....prohibit MOD families from having Companion Animals in MOD Housing.
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but the New Mess, built 89/90, was a vast improvement on what preceded it. I grow old, was it there Aileen broke both her wrists and sued and got compensation? |
Originally Posted by Nigerian Expat Outlaw
(Post 10349464)
This situation is far from new. When I was posted to Middle Wallop in 1985 the MQ we were allocated had two missing windows and the ancient lino tiles covering the entire ground floor were secured using 2" nails which protruded by around 1/4". When I asked the RQMS (a LSL WO2 who was biding his time to demob) what could be done I was told nothing, after all I was only there for a year. We had two children, one aged 2 and one aged 6 months, who we couldn't allow to play in case they injured themselves on the nails. The entire year was spent with plywood nailed over the missing window panes.
That period ignited an increasing desire to leave, consolidated by various degradations of service life and culminating in the Options For Change spending review. NEO |
There are other issues such as those in long term relationships but not married or in a legally recognised relationship being forced to make choices between family and job. I kept my family... but not the RAF. |
Originally Posted by thunderbird7
(Post 10349547)
Its almost like you need an organisation to look after estates, run by the MOD - you could call it, say, MOD (PE)?
Googling MoD PE to research my pithy comment above, I came across this article. No wonder the UK has so little money when greedy people are given the opportunity to strip the assets of the nation bare. Scandalous doesn't even begin to cover it. "This had another consequence: the high borrowing costs meant that all the hundreds of millions paid in rent by the MoD in the last two decades has washed straight offshore, endlessly servicing debt. Annington’s investors – the biggest winners in the deal – have made the largest profits. And because all the rental income floods offshore, Annington has never made an operating profit in the UK. Despite receiving £168m in rent from the MoD last year, Annington didn’t pay a penny of corporation tax." Veterans freezing on the streets and you read that. Draft in a few ex VSO's as supposed top cover and crack on! I wonder how many involved, both mil and civ service, were mentioned in New Year awards over the decades?? |
Whenurhappy
In your post 9, was "an inexorable **** to the private sector" a Freudian slip? |
Originally Posted by weemonkey
(Post 10349792)
What an article.
"This had another consequence: the high borrowing costs meant that all the hundreds of millions paid in rent by the MoD in the last two decades has washed straight offshore, endlessly servicing debt. Annington’s investors – the biggest winners in the deal – have made the largest profits. And because all the rental income floods offshore, Annington has never made an operating profit in the UK. Despite receiving £168m in rent from the MoD last year, Annington didn’t pay a penny of corporation tax." Veterans freezing on the streets and you read that. Draft in a few ex VSO's as supposed top cover and crack on! I wonder how many involved, both mil and civ service, were mentioned in New Year awards over the decades?? |
I seem to recall that on a base in the 90's many of the MQs were sold (given) off to the local council who refused to accept them in the state they were in. So much of the budget was spent refurbishing them so that the council would accept them leaving not very much (almost nothing) of the budget for the occupied MQs and the rest of the base.
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I couldn’t believe that Daedalus OM at RAFP Cranditz was having a new roof fitted when I saw it the other day - the old one can’t be older than 22 years old! All these ‘new builds’ are proper sh!te and just like modern houses are not built to last. When Trenchard/Churchill invested in the RAF’s real estate in the 20s/30s then at least it was built to last - it’s just that the chimps we employ seem incapable of doing so. What happens is that the MOD sells the site off for peanuts and then some proper craftsmen are employed by the new owners to restore these lovely buildings with modern glazing and heating. Go and have a look at former RAF Bicester - sold off for £2.5M - where the average 4 bed detached costs over £0.5M - now looking resplendent as a new vintage aircraft and vehicle tech hub. The Quarters have also been flogged off on the cheap and the personel at nearby Croughton are mostly out in rented accommodation. The (mis)management of our estate makes my blood boil. It won’t be long before Halton, Henlow, Brawdy, Chivenor, Mildenhall and Colerne are all sold off for a pittance - Hullavington has already gone for next to b^gger all. Grrrr... |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10349601)
Simple solution to the problem.....prohibit MOD families from having Companion Animals in MOD Housing.
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 10349935)
I couldn’t believe that Daedalus OM at RAFP Cranditz was having a new roof fitted when I saw it the other day - the old one can’t be older than 22 years old! All these ‘new builds’ are proper sh!te and just like modern houses are not built to last. When Trenchard/Churchill invested in the RAF’s real estate in the 20s/30s then at least it was built to last - it’s just that the chimps we employ seem incapable of doing so. What happens is that the MOD sells the site off for peanuts and then some proper craftsmen are employed by the new owners to restore these lovely buildings with modern glazing and heating. Go and have a look at former RAF Bicester - sold off for £2.5M - where the average 4 bed detached costs over £0.5M - now looking resplendent as a new vintage aircraft and vehicle tech hub. The Quarters have also been flogged off on the cheap and the personel at nearby Croughton are mostly out in rented accommodation. The (mis)management of our estate makes my blood boil. It won’t be long before Halton, Henlow, Brawdy, Chivenor, Mildenhall and Colerne are all sold off for a pittance - Hullavington has already gone for next to b^gger all. Grrrr... It’s looking increasingly likely that I’ll be leaving after 15 years into a 30 year contract. The housing situation is one of the main factors. From this family it appears that people are the number one priority in name only. |
I remember in 76 some poor kid at Saints had life changing injuries, she ran down the stairs, slipped and went through a glass panel at the bottom, all because someone had scrimped on the costings and fitted ordinary glass instead of safety glass. |
MG.....is my Sarcasm too deep for you?
The Title of the thread is...."Military accommodation not fit for animals". Thus....if MOD bans animals....then the problem is solved. That MOD forces humans into accommodation not fit for animals... is quite telling what it thinks of its Service Members and the families. We had the same problem for years with each Service having different standards for housing particularly Enlisted Members Barracks accommodation. After each scandal....a few very senior folks retire early with full pensions and some cheap paint, plaster, and bath fixtures gets applied to the places that generated the scandal. Imagine, You do Fifteen Months in Combat....get re-deployed to your Unit Home Duty Station.....and you are confronted with this! If I had been the Father....my Son would not be living in that Barracks for a single minute....but would be bivouac'd on the CG's front yard with me standing guard over him with a Media Film Crew in attendance. Let the General explain that to the President that sent my Son off to war and the Media. |
Good hit! :ok: SASless.
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Originally Posted by Miles Magister
(Post 10349924)
I seem to recall that on a base in the 90's many of the MQs were sold (given) off to the local council who refused to accept them in the state they were in. So much of the budget was spent refurbishing them so that the council would accept them leaving not very much (almost nothing) of the budget for the occupied MQs and the rest of the base.
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 10349935)
I couldn’t believe that Daedalus OM at RAFP Cranditz was having a new roof fitted when I saw it the other day - the old one can’t be older than 22 years old! I went to the Summer Ball there in 1997 shortly after it opened. You're right it is in ****e order (as is the one at Cosford) - it was probably built down to a price. |
For those with far too much time on their hands....this link will take you to a document that pertains to the DOD's decision to be rid of "Temporary Buildings" constructed to accommodate the build up of American Forces during WWI....and later WWII.
It was a daunting task for Engineers during both Wars....as for example we went from a 270,000 Man Army in 1940 to an 8,270,000 Army in 1945. Those Temporary Buildings were not designed for long term use. We were still using a large number of them into the 1990's. They were not built for creature comforts....just dry places for eating, sleeping, with the barest of toilet facilities.....no insulation and perhaps a Coal fired heat of some kind....that had to be hand fired. After the War, there was a huge building project called "Capehart Housing" with the majority of that work being done in the 1950's. The last of those Married Housing units were razed just a couple of years ago. The current standard of married housing....is of a much higher quality and modern design.....although there still exists a large amount of the older units. With the draw down of Force Numbers....the DOD actually began to Lease vacant housing to non-active duty persons to provide funds for maintenance for all of the housing. With the improved funding of DOD under the new administration....those folks are slowly being evicted. To put the Temporary Barracks thing into perspective....my Father's generation used them, I used them, and my Son would have used them, and possibly my Grand Son....for a building with a 2-4 Year design life. Lap of luxury it were....I dream of having such a place yet today I do.....NOT! We have our problems with military housing but are making good progress on the problem once again......due to the Money being available. |
MG.....is my Sarcasm too deep for you? The Title of the thread is...."Military accommodation not fit for animals". Thus....if MOD bans animals....then the problem is solved. |
I ha to say that having signed for most of the buildings at Mount Pleasant in Jan-May 86 I was a bit surprised to see them all still standing on the 'Island parish' TV series filmed in the FI 30 years later. I seem to recall a 'life' of either 10 or 15 years. I think 'death star' itself (the accommodation complex) would withstand a nuclear explosion
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Originally Posted by ExAscoteer
(Post 10350542)
Not quite 21 years old.
I went to the Summer Ball there in 1997 shortly after it opened. You're right it is in ****e order (as is the one at Cosford) - it was probably built down to a price. Added to that, it is a building singularly lacking in any architectural merit. |
In 1956 I was posted to RAF Worksop. No married accommodation available so was temporarily in AMQ at West Barrier, RAF Finningley. Cooking was done over a 2-burner (or 3-) oil burning cooker device, front room heated by a coal fire which had an oven incorporated at the rear, accessed from the kitchen. Was glad to leave such a primitive dwelling and move to a hiring in Worksop. Things have moved on since then.
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Originally Posted by ValMORNA
(Post 10352048)
In 1956 I was posted to RAF Worksop. No married accommodation available so was temporarily in AMQ at West Barrier, RAF Finningley. Cooking was done over a 2-burner (or 3-) oil burning cooker device, front room heated by a coal fire which had an oven incorporated at the rear, accessed from the kitchen. Was glad to leave such a primitive dwelling and move to a hiring in Worksop. Things have moved on since then.
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Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10350326)
Happened with the Airmen's patch at West Drayton too, around 1984. Council didn't want them!
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That is, sadly, true. OH was OC SSF there, so be assured of veracity! Mercifully I only spent a week there doing an ATC ADP Course ... living there would have been awful, although the Bar was OK! WD OM was undoubtedly one of the worst the RAF ever created, and the OR’s accommodation was similar. Appalling place! |
There are JRs at Waddington who have not had hot water for well over a year. Absolute disgrace and one of the many reasons I pulled the handle. It’s hard to look a subordinate in the eye when they are living like that whilst the station is spending tens of thousands on a vulcan statue at the main gate. Complete joke and they are voting with their feet. |
When I briefly existed in the OM at Brize before escaping to my own house, one of the major embuggerations was the hot water system. Turn on the tap in your washbasin in the morning and cold, brown liquid would flow. You had to run the tap several minutes before the water became even tepid...
Roll forward to a Mess Meeting. Someone had proposed spending a huge amount of dosh on new Ladies' Room curtains; however those of us who suffered the water problem spoke against the motion with one voice. Whereupon some blunty stood up and muttered about 'different budgets'. To which the leader of our mob said he didn't give a stuff - but was it right to spend money on something totally unnecessary when even the basic need of those paying to live in couldn't be met? Bless him, the PMC agreed and the Ladies' Room retained its entirely adequate existing curtains. |
Answer is to bring back National Service. In Australia when this was introduced they had to fix all the quarters at Kapooka and most other bases as it was condemned as not fit to live in. It previously had been good enough for us..
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