Question For The Nav's Amongst Us!
 

Is this possible?

The one thing they left out was which Time Zones they were in?

Also....would not the date have to be the 30th at one end of the ship and the 1st at the other end....with the 31st disappearing altogether?

As the Warrimoo was an Aussie ship....could this just be some odd sort of a prank?

The whole story is on Wikipedia. The keyword is allegedly.

Important caveat:

Sam Clemens aka Mark Twain made a similar voyage on the Warrimoo and penned his thoughts about part of the issues brought up in my original. post.

https://quadriv.wordpress.com/2011/1...-s-s-warrimoo/

If you think about it for a moment, the celestial navigation techniques available in 1900 were nowhere near accurate enough to position a ship within one nautical mile, let alone straddling two hemispheres. In addition, a position fix would only be valid at the time it was taken, and trying to steer an exact interception course via compass, in the face of wind and sea currents, is impossible.

Disclaimer, aviation related content: Exactly the same challenge was faced by bomber aircraft, until the advent of GPS guided weapons in the 1990s. The history of strategic bombing during WW2 indicates the enormous technical efforts put into place, with very limited effectiveness.

Personal note: My late father was a navigator seconded to the RAF during 1944-5. I'm sure he would have had stories to tell, but sadly did not live as long as Danny42C.

Now that we have GPS, digital auto positioning, providing extremely accurrately placement of Oil Drill Rigs and dynamically positioning of ship mounted drill operations....I suggest it is possible t to position such a vessel over the spot within a meter ro two accuracy and maintain that position.

That gets us back to the original question.

If the RAF and USAF had GPS as t hey do today....WWII would have had a much different Strategic Bombing Campaign.

The Tirpitz would have gone down in a single mission, buildings would be targeted rather than whole cities, but that was not the case back then....but it is today.

The Luftwaffe would have shot down a lot more too.

Navigation is only relevant for stationary objects. Moving targets require tracking with radar, which is a very different technology, and was quite effective during WW2.

Had the RAF and USAF launched a thousand airplanes each....day and night....to say three hundred targets scattered all over Germany.....how would the Luftwaffe have coped with such a wide area to defend?

The Flak Batteries would have to be spread out more, fighters would have further to go to reach the many bombers, and diversions would be much simpler to devise.

The idea of miles long streams of bombers flying the same route and to the same destination and fighters (day and night) being able to make like Orca's going after schools of Sardines would not have been possible.

But with GPS which could be pilot operated for navigation....who would serve up the Pies and Tea?

Bomb Aimers would be out business as well....but then who would wake up the Nav to have the inflight meal served.

Without the tankers these chaps would have been in the poo, and wishing they had someone with the celestial nav skills of Capt. Gordon Vette.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...te-line-03087/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_188_Pacific_rescue

It just reminds one of how thin the line can be between surviving and dying can be!

Both the technology failure and rescue stories are remarkable in their own way, though I would emphasise the difference between being 'lost' with no idea where you are, and 'exact' navigation to within a ship's length, as implied by the original story at the start of this thread.

Another concept that comes to mind is the use of daylight tracking to geolocate lightweight animal tags (without GPS). Automatic measurements of length of day, and time of local noon (along with an on-board clock and some processing power), are generally sufficient to estimate latitude and longitude respectively, and track migrations over vast distances: Animal Migration Research, Jeff Kelly Lab

As one reference humorously states: It is difficult to persuade an animal to carry out a daily sextant observation!

Edit: This article implies that the claimed accuracy of Capt Vette's solar navigation and VHF 'boxing' was about as mythical as Mark Twain, though his role in the rescue was indeed honourable: http://www.navworld.com/navcerebrations/mayday.htm

But if the adoption of technology had followed the same patterns as in the 1930s, the German Air Force would have had superior GPS equipment, before the RAF or USAAF put it into service. As the crucial targets in 1940, like air fields and armaments plants, were mostly clearly located on the excellent Ordnance Survey maps, history might have gone differently well before the bomber offensives.

The F-22 incident occurred at the time I was testing an in-flight AAR mission planning and management computer system. So I devised a plan which crossed both the equator and IDL at midnight GMT in the middle of an AAR refuelling bracket, knowing that the previous contractor's version was certainly date dependent...one of its many failings But the new version was fine and much to the relief of the supplier, no problems were encountered.

Regarding navigation in WW2, one aspect which should be recalled is that magnetic declination values were much greater than today - and there were no INS running on true in Lancasters! Everything was magnetic - with around 11 deg W declination at Waddington and 4 deg W over Berlin! Maintaining an accurate course whilst being harassed by night fighters cannot have been easy!

Declination?

I think you mean variation, Beagle!

Never mind WW2 - it wasn't much better in the 50s. On the navex flown to qualify for a BC Select rating, the requirement for a Canberra crew on the long 'limited aids' (ie astro) leg was to stay within 50 miles of the intended track - I don't remember what was called for on timing. It did make you realise what a godsend the introduction of Gee must have been.

Even in the 80s you could have problems. In April 82 just after the Argentinians had invaded the Falkland Islands, and before the Victor tankers deployed to Ascension Island, there was an AAR trail for Harriers to Goose Bay. After taking on fuel in a Tanker/Tanker bracket at Stornoway we set off across the North Atlantic in company with 3 Harriers. Shortly thereafter the Doppler failed. The forecast wind was 270/40, so this what we had to use for DR. Fixing was not possible as although there were several Position Lines to give a Latitude check (Stavanger Consol, Faroes NDB and Sun Shots) there was nothing to give a Longitude check. The wind was actually 270/120!! Fortunately we had 3 INS equipped chicks with us to give us position updates until we could get a N/S Position line from Iceland. If we had been on our own we would have been 80 nm in error after an hour.

On the return leg, as first in the stream, in a different aircraft with working Doppler we transmitted the actual winds/positions to the following stream of Victors.

Brian 48Nav:-

Declination, Schmecklination...that might have been the cause of this slight whoopsie:-

Incidents and Accidents

Brian 48Nav wrote:

Probably - a lapse in terminology through having to consider 'station declination' and actual MagVar when considering Place/Bearing/Distance from various ground-based beacons which applied fixed declination values to transmitted radials rather than actual MagVar.

Trying to work out how to cope with an aircraft which didn't have a 'north sense' switch and which operated in northern Canada using magnetic values displayed on the instruments whilst the INUs worked in True was....interesting. Particularly without the benefit of a food-powered navigation system (in his case...lots) such as Tengah Type!

Originally, as it was only ever expected to fly on UK AARAs, the VC10K flew with Mag values displayed to the pilots. This could be changed to 'True' by turning an 'HSI' switch on the centre panel. Except that it wasn't really 'True', it was Mag minus whatever MagVar the navigator had set....:\ I only tried the switch once (with a very experienced navigator on the crew) over Canada - when turned it did so reluctantly and subsequently kept rotating! I managed to get it back into 'Mag' and vowed never to touch it again!

Things became much more logical after the VC10K was fitted with a GPS/LINS to augment the Carousel - and we also had the luxury of an autopilot 'NAV' mode. But the Mod was a typical cheap botch-up as the navigator didn't have a repeater display to see what the pilots could see - and the pilots (perhaps wisely) couldn't make any nav inputs (except verbal requests to the navigator!).

You could also have a lot of fun with setting the Variation to whatever value was required. We often flew a" single heading " from Hong Kong to Singapore, despite a track change of 20 degrees as we passed Vietnam, by judicious use of the Variation Setting Control. Some pilots queried why some Navs called for a heading change but others did not. We never told them!

Flying Grid/Gyro also had its amusing times as the pilots tried to resolve the Grid heading with the Magnetic Heading. One month at Marham we flew on Grid for "Navigator Training" with a Grivation of 180 degrees,ie North is South. You departed Marham and flew "South West" to the North Sea. Watching the pilots turning in their seats to try to read the conflicting headings was great fun. After a month we were told to stop it.

Chugalug,

Yes I remember that incident - in fact on my only ever staff crew trip on a VC10 a few weeks before, the guy in question was the nav' out of Bahrain to Changi
Something similar happened on a Herc' in 72/73 - the nav'; applied grivation east instead of west ( or was it the other way round? My brain hurts! ) lo and behold landfall was IIRC Greenland and not Newfoundland or Labrador. On arrival at either Gander/Goose the skipper sent a signal outlining what had happened, including that the nav' had realised and owned up to his error. His E Cat arrived by return signal, but because he had owned up he was treated very sympathetically. I believe that Fg Off nav retired as a Grp Capt.

Beags

After my posting I put declination in the search engine and found it is a rarely used term instead of variation. Test pilot son says he is aware of that definition but always uses variation.

I did do a couple of polar grid/gyro training flights to Thule, the second was in '71 when we took some of the Red Arrows team to examine possible routes for their Gnats to use on what was to be their first States trip the following spring. I recall looking at Sondestrom, Frobisher and Narssarssuaq ( sp.? ) as well.

B48N:-
It's spelt Bluie West One if you are a fan of Ernest K Gann. :)

Couldn't possibly be my ex FO Hastings Nav who retired as a Gp Capt, or I'd surely have heard about it. The arcane practices of Navs became even more arcane in those northerly latitudes, but mine always got me to the other side of the pond without incident, for which I give (and gave!) much thanks.

To be an Aviator....one must know Gann!



There many other quotes that are worth reading....he knew what he was talking about.

Except for where the airport was in relation to the Taj Mahal, and the recommendation to inflate your life jacket while in the aircraft. Still, Antoine de Saint- Exupéry had the red nav light on the right wing tip. Shows the best can slip on facts. Having said that, anyone who hasn't read both authors can hardly call themselves aviators. :ok:

In the 70s and early 80s KC135s were still using celestial as our primary means of navigation. We had dopplers, but they usually didn't work over water. We did practice grid on a regular basis though so it wasn't a big deal to see really strange headings.

More easily I submit.

Concentration of a 1,000 bombers in a limited area and time saturated the defences and achieves local air superiority. A similar plan was envisag envisaged in the Cold War with penetrating bombers routed through just a few gaps this saturating the missile batteries.

Had the 1,000 bombers been spread over much of Germany many more fighters would be able to engage.
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An d the VC10 around 1968 but he didn't own up.

The Blue Spruce Route was still in the En Route Supplement in order to cross the pond in VOR cover when all the super kit goes tango uniform and there are no directional consultants on board. A good hint though when heading west is to keep the sun on the left side of the aircraft. The converse also applies.

Bush flying in Alaska with the Hughes 500D and other helicopters with Mag Compass only or at best a Directional Gyro......with upwards of 20 Degrees Variation and some aircraft caused Deviation....and in the very far north along and beyond the Arctic Ocean coast line....with no discernible land features in sight.....life could bet a bit worrisome at times.

Sense of Direction could be a real quandary as looking a route that was clearly north/south or east/west....and having a Compass reading well off of that was a hard thing to accept.

Then add in near white out conditions and a featureless surface.....it was great fun.

This old Brit found navigation in Canada to be bl++dy difficult due to the absence of roads, railways and habitation in general, but a Canadian pilot told me that a plethora of the above mentioned in much of the UK was equally difficult for him!
At least in the UK fields are rectangular and not circular!

Meandering back to the original question, at the risk of going slightly off topic, this is a fascinating story on its own: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-47192952
The time-frames are about the same (1915 vs 1900), but the required degree of navigational accuracy in polar exploration is much more than a passenger steamer of the same era. It probably still doesn't come close to the implied accuracy for the original story.

Rose.....I can assure you navigation in the UK by use of a map and Mark I Eye is very difficult for those not used to the UK.

On our charts....the yellow bits connote Towns, Cities, and Major Urban areas....and they stand apart from the surrounding rural areas both on the map and to the eye.

When you get down towards London for instance....the whole map turns yellow on you and discerning the different place names of the huge glob of yellow becomes impossible to the visitor.

I and another American Pilot got quite lost over London.....he was doing the navigating and I was doing the flying (Honest Mi'Lord....although I was the Captain).

When I saw the map rotate 360 degrees twice in the space of a minute....I suspected the worst and upon inquiring if he had any idea of our location.....he gave me an odd look.

His response while looking back behind us on his side...."Nope...none at all....but it is 3:15!"......made me think he was losing his grip.

I turned the aircraft to see what he could be looking at......to see Big Ben itself.

Fortunately.....I immediately knew where we were and which roads to follow to find our way to Bristow's Headquarters in Redhill.....and a subsequent unplanned meeting with Mr. Bristow himself in his office.

Seems there were some inquiries by some folks at the CAA that related to my tour of downtown London.

Had we been British I surmise we might have been in some trouble....but as we were "....a couple of bloody Yanks...." we escaped and kept our jobs.

After that....Mr. Bristow knew our names for sure.

From a practical point of view, as far as they could prove that's the position they were in, so they could claim they were simultaneously in those time zones. At the same time no one can prove they weren't there!
Of course if they were that convinced they should have kept the sighting so others could check their workings...

Good points, though its pretty clear the story is apocryphal. No sailor worth his salt tries to take position sights from the rolling deck of a ship at midnight, which is the crux of the tale.

A so-called noon sun sight takes several minutes of careful planning and relies on a visible horizon, while night time astronomical sights require the position of several stars for accuracy. The SR-71 had an expensive navigation system that could do this (even during daytime due to its high altitude).

Lots of useful background available online: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation

Did many USAF aircraft get a fully automated astro system as that Wiki article seems to imply? I ask as the C-141A was, I believe, intended to have one, complete with Astro-Tracker but, in the event, only the Astro Computer element was fitted. Very useful it was too, but sights were taken by Navs with a Kollsman sextant in the normal way.

And does anyone recall using that Link Celestial Nav Trainer mentioned, either in RAF or US service? All I can recall from Nav School in 1965 (Hullavington) was having to get 100 star/planet shots with the Bubble Sextant, hoping that the resulting lines went through some part of Wiltshire.

With the current shifting of the Earth's magnetic fields in the Arctic Regions....even if you know your position to the ever so small a margin....how do you determine the proper course to steer to arrive at your destination?

With the introduction of SCNS into the C130K fleet, the periscopic sextant was removed and celestial navigation went with it. I never did get the 100 star/planet sightings completed at nav school and my Rude Star Identifier was handed back into stores in the year 2000 in as new condition.