Cambridge Spies and vetting experiences
 

I am reading Lownie's biography of Guy Burgess, "Stalin's Englishman". It is almost soiling and contaminating to read about this arrogant flawed genius, with filthy finger nails and clothes and Old Etonian tie, chewing garlick, swilling any alcohol in sight, and bumming indiscriminately even when he had a steady living-in boyfriend. How such a bastard was allowed to betray his country for so long is an indictment of the then Establishment, and the unmasking [painfully slow and clumsy] of Burgess, Maclean and Philby may mark the beginning of the loss of respect [even deference] towards our leaders, lords and masters.
However, one fact jumped out at me, the introduction of Positive Vetting, said to be c. 1951, in the wake of Klaus Fuchs and the Cambridge quintet. Thus I, and many RAF PPruners, signed up when PV was tiered on to NV. I expect almost all aircrew needed PV [or a military equivalent] from the outset, a huge task for the ex-Policemen and ROs in flashers' macs to maintain.
NV was good enough for most Met men and women unless they were appointed to certain posts, and my first experience of PV was doing leave reliefs from Finningley to Wyton in the early 1970s. It had to be topped up [5 years]? when I joined the TACEVAL team in BFG [with quite a few bolt-on indoctrinations which I am sure were not relevant on a need to know basis], and lapsed when I went from 1 Group HQ to civil aviation. Finally it was needed again at JHQ.
This last fling involved the usual interview in 1989, by which time all manner of naughty behaviour was legal and tolerated, so some of the questions seemed fatuous.
"What do you consider to be deviant sex?"
"Anything I wouldn't do!"
So, if you are allowed to tell PV tales of long ago, please tell them.

LB, not all aircrew. The main criteria was access to TS and other caveated material. I remember one Confessor, ex+policeman. He would interview referred nominated by the subject and other should be decide he needed more evidence.

What asked one delicate question the referee said "Give us a kiss and I'll tell you.". The referee lost his clearance .

I was once questioned as an additional referee. The confessor just could not read his target, nor could be understand what I told him. There were two crucial facts: the target was engaged in an extremely hostile divorce and was in the point of leaving the Air Force and going civvie.

To facilitate the former he spent every penny he had on things a BMW 2500 when most settled on a 2002. Clothes, all beautifully stored etc etc. He had a very regular GF. His interest in the Air Force was not pending his courts martial. He was arrow straight, had no need of a PV, and the whole thing a farce.

I was told that a confession was like a Catholic confessional. A particular wg cdr, having confessed, could not be dismissed. OTOH an airman confessing to his flt cdr would be dismissed. A VSO, posted to the US failed US clearance but because our system was confidential his posting could not be cancelled. It was believe that the US staged a situation where the VSO was compromised.

I was PVed when I completed my Valiant course at Gaydon as were all aircrew entering the V Force. I was marched in to be a character witness for my best mate from ITS. When I had finished he was marched in to be my character witness.

Despite our efforts we both passed.

Thank you both. From WIKI I infer that the process/ grading levels is/ are now much more complicated.

Read the book 'Guy Liddell's Diaries Of a Cold War Spymaster' by Nigel West and be prepared to be actually sickened how MI5 and MI6 operated in catching these traitors. Maclean's interrogation was more a friendly chat than actually really holding his feet to the fire. He was lucky it ws the British who questiond him rather than the NKVD which I suspect would have been far more brutal and terminal for his health. Blunt and Caircross should also have been rigoursly interrogated. The establishment at this time covered up treason for which a rope was still an option.

Thank you, that will be next on my book list [I have read the Maclean biography, and Philby is next.] Could it still happen? Probably not, because the upside of the death of deference is that young and middle-aged people have been taught to question and to abandon respect for their "betters". Tugging forelocks has gone, unless one wants a knighthood. This is not an easy concept for me, an octogenarian, but it is healthier if inconvenient.
Would PV have ended their wickedness? Not with the old boy system.

Have a look at https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/revealed-welsh-fighter-pilot-jailed-2035807

We may suppose that the money motive might prove the one easiest to detect ........ no point in having it in the bank, and spending above income is very noticeable.
In the liberal cultures developed in the West, many of the erstwhile blackmail levers are much enfeebled:
buggery? no worries; drugs? legal or about to be; alcoholism? who cares ........
Self-motivated and highly educated idealogues may be a rare species in the present climate of cynicism and instant information. The Cambridge spies were a product of their time, an unrepeatable cancer on the body politic I believe. With one significant exception, believing in a creed or a system to the degree required is in short supply. Spies aren't what they used to be.

It is a very dry almost arid book, a good cure for insomnia.

Oh!
Sounds like a library loan rather than a purchase. It is difficult to make wickedness dull.

Back in the 1980's, while employed as a NIS (now NCIS) Special Agent I had a weak moment of weakness and assume the Boss Fellah was serious when he asked for suggestions re Personnel Security (think Insider Threat) and I raised my hand and upon being acknowledged.....suggested we do covert Credit Checks, review Credit Card Accounts, and do Net Worth Studies on those folks holding Top Secret Compartmented Information and/or Crypto Clearances.

I was informed just how ludicrous an idea such a thing was.....and I should restrain my thinking to showing up to work on time and other similarly complex issues.

It was not more than a few weeks later when the Walker Spy Case broke....and I was amongst the Team of Agents who removed the Son from his ship during a port call to our Base.

If you remember.....the Senior Walkers were doing their treasonous acts for monetary reasons and were spending money far beyond their means.

Of course.....reminding my Boss of all those facts did not fall within his previous guidance to me and keep my thoughts to myself.

When. you opt for a Security Clearance....you certainly should shed some of your Rights and Freedoms in order for the Government to trust you with very sensitive information.


Look at the current situation with our FBI and DOJ....where existing internal security protocols were not followed by very senior staff of the FBI and DOJ.

There have been some dismissals, resignations, and even a couple of criminal referrals for investigation and possible prosecution......in the end....it will all be forgotten and ignored by those running the show.

In the late 60s I was put, at no notice, into a post that required PV clearance because I necessarily had access to the war plans for the unit. About 4 months later, a plod turned up to do the PV interview, which mostly consisted of him telling me how brilliant the system was and how much better they were at catching people than in the Philby era.

At the end of the chat, he asked when I expected to be in the post for which the clearance was needed. When I said "Four months ago", he blanched. Two weeks later, a story broke in the press of a junior airman at Digby who had been giving away (or selling - can't recall) highly classified material.

Vetting was seemed to be a pretty narrow process. It was assessing your susceptibility to blackmail by or sympathy with the Soviet Union. Loyalty and treason in our modern world has far more flavours. If your ethnic origin is the same as your potential foe, will you be reliable?

In many scenarios the risk will be ideological and not blackmail or financial.

Back to the OP, one problem with the confessional was its absolute confidentiality. A wg cdr, confessing to homosexuality would be cleared even though he remained susceptible to outing. An airmen confessing to his superior would be discharged.

A VSO, earmarked for a NATO post in the USA could not have his posting cancelled as that would compromise the confessional. As we wouldn't cancel his posting the cousins set up a compromise which outed him.

My favourite PV story concerned the young submarine officer who was having his PV review. He sailed through all the standard questions, but things became more interesting when he was asked if had any unusual pursuits or even, ahem, fetishes. He asked the interviewer what sort of thing did he have in mind, because he wasn’t exactly sure what constituted a fetish, so he was given a few examples.

On hearing the explanation, he then admitted that he particularly enjoyed dressing-up and wearing rubber next the skin, at which point the note taking went into overdrive. When asked for more specific details, such as when he engaged in this practice and whether he indulged in it in private or with others, he replied that he did so as often as possible and that, whenever possible, he preferred to be involved with at least one buddy. The next question was whether he preferred the buddies to be male or female, to which he replied that he much preferred them to be male.

The interviewer, by now burning holes in his notebook, then asked whether he had any particularly favourite buddy, and whether they were civilians or in the Service, and was more than a little surprised to be told that his favourite buddy was his First Lieutenant. This was almost too much for the interviewer, who then asked whether their Commanding Officer was aware of this apparently very close relationship, only to be told, “Of course he does - after all I am the Ship’s Diving Officer!”

Jack

UJ,

Classic.

my boss was getting his done for some nuke stuff.

When I was interviewed it came to the sexual stuff and my reply was "well his nickname is Chai Chai". Who was in London zoo at the time.

interviewer leans forward and says "so he has a preference for Chinese ladys?"

"No... he has the sexual prowess of a giant panda" was my reply.

My thoughts that the interview was confidential to the person being enquired about proved to be false.

In the early 80s and on my way back to Saxa Vord I stayed over at Turnhouse before an early flight to Lerwick. PSS had decided Turnhouse was a convenient place to do my DV Red Seal! It was latish on a sunday night, I had travelled up from the Midlands and had arrived after dinner had finished - as usual I was thirsty and very hungry and after 4 pints and a packet of nuts on an empty stomach was interviewed by the PSS retired officer. Cant remember much about the interview but regarding having any sort of problems with drink, suspect that he was mildly convinced that this pi$$ed young PO did not have a problem!! As for deviancy, well the sheep looked quite pretty after long happy hours and 6 months without leave but I didn't admit that.

name withheld.............................................

The old PV process was walk in the park compared to what happens now with the DV - their appetite for details of your on-line life seems to know no bounds.
Just check out Section 22!

DV Form

Jeez that DV form is quite the task! I see we are now officially "right on!" in referring to Gender Identity and the honorific Mx.

I agree with the deep-dive into personal finances and the internet stuff has probably replaced the "are you a homo" as a source of interest. And rightly so now the latter is pretty much compulsory in the more interesting bits of public service.

In the latter days of the V-force, acting as a PV referee for a chum was quite common.

One bloke was asked about the sexual orientation of the person for whom he was acting as referee... "Normal, I imagine", was the reply.
"So you're not sure? Does he like women?"
"I expect so, most of us do. He goes to the same parties, where there's lots of crumpet"
"So there's some doubt?"
"Look, I haven't actually watched him having a $h*g, so that's the best I can tell you!"
"Next question..."

I pitied the poor old retired chap who turned up in his tweed suit at Brawdy to give me my initial PV interview. Summer of '76, a very hot day and the interview was to be held in a small office. I'd just had an hour at low level charging around Wales and had then walked back from the line. So I was sweating more than a rock ape at a spelling contest by the time we started. As the room was very stuffy, he had the full beneft of my sweaty flying suit and turning trousers - so the interview went remarkably quickly and he was soon on his long journey back to civilisation!

A quick scan through that DV questionnaire shows how difficult and intrusive it is. Difficult for many to have to delve into family history of partner's parents etc etc. It is certainly not a form you can fill in in a spare moment.

I received two PV interviews, one in 1978 and one in 1981 when the first was due for renewal. I nearly screwed both up, but didn't, the first chap (and the interviewer was straight from central casting, he reminded me, heavy overcoat, Bowler and brush moustache of a humourless older version of Mr Grimsdale and for all the world had walked through a time portal from 1948.) asked me about my religious convictions to which I said I had none, he said you mean you're an agnostic, I said no I think we're called atheists. He said nothing more, let on not a jot apart from writing something down then moved on. I saved myself by showing off about having rowed against convention, the Chief Tech instructor told me what a silly fool I was then went off to see what he could do after having explained the situation I'd just landed myself in. It worked once I'd had a clarification interview with the Telegraphy School Warrant Officer. The next time was in post at Boerfink in Germany, this time a hail fellow well met type with a soft Scots accent met me in a far more informal setting, he rattled off a list of proscribed organizations which our lot didn't care much for, I was doing well repeatedly saying no. He then came to the Church of Scientology, who are they I asked and he described perfectly a small office on Goodge Street just off Tottenham Court Road, where passers by were approached by someone stood outside and invited in for a chat and a cup of Tea. I was one of the passers by who said ok, I'm intrigued. I told him so and the genial smile disappeared instantly as he started writing furiously. Knowing something was up, I asked are they not to be trusted or something, not wanting to appear too well informed. I managed to convince this chap that I hadn't been indoctrinated into anything daft and that I'd played the event for laughs. But he wasn't happy, but again I got away with it!

Best Regards,

FB

Very true. It matters not now, but I honestly didn't know at the time that my paternal Grandfather was a gun runner in Northern Ireland. I found it all a little confusing. TS clearance, but not allowed to manage projects with companies there, even remotely. Yet I'm still a referee for a 1 Star secret-and-devious type person who spent half his career there.

I discovered in 1985 that if one subscribed to Socialist Worker, promotion beyond PTO3 was prohibited. (One below MoD(PE) minima). An eye-opener to what MoD knows about its staff!

Fascinating tales, glad I don't have to suffer DV or whatever.
An aspect of the burden of PV that may ring bells is "can't waste a perfectly good PV" when posting/ promotion time calls.
When I reached PSO/ Grade 7 or whatever it is these days, instead of a forecasting post [forecasting was the only thing I was any good at by comparison with my peers] I was offered Leuchars or Bawtry as an admin wallah with 3 years "perfectly good PV" still in hand.
Not that I minded being spared shiftwork or civil aviation or an HQ desk.

PS Defence of the Realm is very hard going I find.
PPS I do love the "rockape in a spelling contest" must tell my son, who was a rock part timer at Scampton.

I did go through DV, but thankfully it was before they'd caught up with the internet and social media.

I know of one case where I was a line manager referee and submitted a report/ reference that was meant to be damning and could not be read other than "I do not believe this person is sufficiently trustworthy for this post".
With examples.Result: person got the job.
Baffled.

Way back in the early 80s there was a chap on the Buccaneer sim staff at Honington who had been vetted on posting from an NV flying job. He told us he was called one evening by HQ P&SS, then at Rudloe Manor, and ordered to report to G/C Somebody there at 0830 the next day to discuss his PV. So he drove through the night and pitched up as ordered. G/C shuffled a bit, hesitated and then said (or words to that effect) "There's no easy way to tell you this, but in the course of our enquiries we have discovered that your brother is a homosexual." "Yes sir" says F/L. "Your don't seem surprised" says G/C. "No sir, it was me that told you. Was there anything else, sir?" "Er...no,thank you..." End of interview!

I was called for an interview for my Top Secret Clearance Investigation.

Among the questions asked were some that dealt with prior criminal behavior.

As I knew I had a squeaky clean record (with the exception of a rather lengthy list of traffic violations and Drivers License Suspensions as a Teen Ager), I was surprised at the interest that was shown when I asked for clarification of what "criminal violations" were defined as being.

The Investigator's interest was piqued when I opined I had been rumbled for smuggling in conjunction with an immigration/customs violation for two countries in Europe.

The short version was while working for Agusta on the Libyan Air Force Chinook Contract, I and and a Tech Rep got done for smuggling my Flight Engineer out of Switzerland and almost into Italy at the Crossing nearest Lugano (the small one and not the one on the Autostrada).

We were paid in US dollars in cash in Lugano....and converted a months worth into Italian Lira there as the exchange rate was much more advantageous than in Italy. That required us to "smuggle" the Lira into Italy.

On this occasion, my FE had managed to lose his Passport in a location he wished not to discuss and we using our best thinking hit the barrier and when stopped fanned out an array of Passports and what might have looked like a Passport in a casual glance.

The Swiss Guard waved us through.....the Italians not.

A quick check of Passports readily determined we had one Body too many.

We got turned around and told to cross the bridge back to Switzerland....which we did almost.

We got stopped by the Swiss who of course wanted to see.............our Passports.

They refused us entry.

When asked where they thought we should go....being as how we were on the Swiss end of a bridge which other end was in Italy and we had just been turned around there.....they got a bit puzzled.

Being dead in the middle of Winter....we with our leather flying jackets....with sleeves stuffed full of bundles of Italian Lira.....when ordered to the Guard Shack which had the heat turned up to about 135 Degress F.....we began to sweat two ways.

They kept saying....take your coats off.....we kept insisting we needed to be on our way.....and in time they decided being rid of us was the easy way out.

As they gave us the good news to leg it to somewhere else....they suggested waiting till rush hour and take a chance on the Autostrada Crossing Point.

We did....as suggested might happen...we got waved through by both the Swiss and the Italians.

My guy decided it was not American Laws that got broke thus I was good to go.

I was referee for a squadron mate in the late 60s. The interviewer told me that it had been suggested that if "X" was offered "a bit on the side" he wouldn't refuse it. I spluttered indignantly that this was out of the question. After the interview I went straight to "X" and said, "Someone's shopped you mate". He replied, "Oh, no worries. I told them that".

I was always amused by the different approaches to asking if you were gay: the retired Lt Col types would spend about five minutes in euphemistic obfuscation and embarrassed apologies before asking the question; the retired coppers, on the other hand, would bluntly come straight out with "Are you a shirtlifter?".

And of course the 5-year clearance was good for the day it was issued, maybe.

Then of course there was the absolute confidentiality of the process - not. I think it was the Provost Marshal himself that blew one character. On our sqn we had a well known and predictable drunkard and functioning alcoholic. It could only have been he who the PM had referred.

Same PM, straight from a meeting with Ministers blabbed about an international security breach. Naturally I rang my ex-flt cdr who had been close enough to get burnt. He said later it had been difficult keeping a straight face when the plots interviewed him.

Been subjected to the PV process twice - on each occasion there was a degree of fixation about my ownership of cars!

"What's your current vehicle?" "How long have you had it?" "Was it bought new?" "And the one before that?" "Was it new?"
We dragged back through the years before I interjected ... "I know what you're getting at. Look, my wife is also a sqn ldr, we have no kids and no mortgage, and can obviously afford it. Shall we move on?" He duly changed the subject!

The second one followed a similar track for a while. Responses included "Used Jaguar XJ6" and "We're both wg cdrs now". He moved on contentedly!

My late father and I shared the same first name and residential address.
Unbeknownst to me, as a civilian he held a clearance for the post he was in ..
By coincidence, as I came up for my initial higher vetting, he came up for a renewal.
You can guess the rest.
"Sorry, but according to my notes here, you look a bit young for this one ...."

Langley Baston,

Really rattling good reads on this stuff include Ben MacIntyre's 'A Spy Among Friends' about Philby, and 'The Spy and the Traitor' about Oleg Gordievsky.

MacIntyre is one of those blokes who writes history as though it was a fast-paced thriller.

​​​​​​​

PV interview at Pitreavie Castle by a retired Sqn Ldr RAFP, I had been warned that he liked to stop the interview to have a brew, he would then resume the interview by sitting behind you to ask his questions. I told him to sit in front of me or I would leave, most interesting question, 'what do you think of Arthur Scargill', this was very early 80's.

PN
I can't speak for the airman, but as a wg cdr I can assure you that "...confessing to homosexuality..." whilst not being 'out' (post 1999) certainly was cited as evidence of dishonesty and the subsequent failure to be granted a DV clearance.

Regards
Batco

Doesn't such policies re Homosexuality themselves create an environment that makes for the possibility of compromise that the policy seeks to prevent?

While doing Background Investigations I always thought removing the environment the fosters compromise would be the sensible way to the security apparatus to work.

After my time....we saw the US Government and particularly the Military alter its policies re Lifestyle issues.

We went from it being a "mortal sin" to be "acceptable behavior".......fortunately I left government service before it became mandatory conduct.

Rood people
 

Deer Beagle and langleybastion, I am not hapy about you're speeling crack. Take it back or I will come round you're houses and discust it with you.

Per Ardua