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-   -   Syrians Shoot Down Russian Reconnaissance (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/613453-syrians-shoot-down-russian-reconnaissance.html)

dead_pan 18th Sep 2018 09:57

You missed our ill-judged venture into the Sudan in 1882 of your list. I'm sure there are others too.

Back on topic, this is looking like a deconfliction cock-up, the Isralis only gaving the Russians minimal notice of their intent. Could well of been deliberate of course, suggesting the air defences in the area have been improved, and that the Syrian military is moving valued kit to to the area to better protect it.

A_Van 18th Sep 2018 10:10

It has been confirmed in the Russian media that the Syrians shot it down using an old S-200 SAM. The bodies and aircraft fragments and debris are being collected by the Russian ships.
The Israeli aircraft played a simple trick approaching the shore nearly along the line-of-sight between the S-200 and Il-20 and warning the Russians about their intended attack just 1 min in advance through a "hot line" (as Russian media say). It was reported that it was too late to remove a slow Il-20 from the dangerous area.
The Russians are angry about Israel. Anyway, the Syrians are to be blamed in the first instance, IMHO.

currawong 18th Sep 2018 10:27

Politics aside.

Thoughts to the crew.

They are airmen like the rest of us.

dead_pan 18th Sep 2018 10:42


Originally Posted by A_Van (Post 10251767)
The Israeli aircraft played a simple trick approaching the shore nearly along the line-of-sight between the S-200 and Il-20

Assume you know this from Russian media reports?

Could have been pre-planned, opportunistic or just plain old happenstance - we will, of course, never know. Either way the Syrians must have known there was a rather large, slow friendly in the area.

DaveReidUK 18th Sep 2018 11:37


Originally Posted by A_Van (Post 10251767)
It was reported that it was too late to remove a slow Il-20 from the dangerous area.

Well once the SAMs had been launched, it was ...

ve3id 18th Sep 2018 11:47


Originally Posted by DroneDog (Post 10251717)
I am assuming the Russians have IFF and other similar systems, yes it may well have been being friendly fire, but who to believe, certainly not Western media. Can you say for certain that it was an accident?

IFF can be fooled:
https://www.dlab.ninja/2012/04/mig-in-middle.html

PDR1 18th Sep 2018 13:03

I was told the Il-20 was doing a photographic survey of local cathederals for a forthcoming RT feature documentary, but wasn't able to get closer because of all that snow.

PDR

melmothtw 18th Sep 2018 13:56


...and warning the Russians about their intended attack just 1 min in advance ...
When you're in cahoots with the target, that's all the warning you're going to get.

A_Van 18th Sep 2018 13:59

Anyway, Putin was rather "mild" talking about this tragedy while addressing condolences to the families. He called it a tragic accident that cannot be compared with deliberate shooting by a Turkish plane a couple of years ago.

icarus sun 18th Sep 2018 14:27

I wonder if the Russian military were using their usual trick of switching off their transponder in international airspace?

The AvgasDinosaur 18th Sep 2018 15:53

Perhaps the Israelies got sick of Ivan tipping off the Syrians about targets and finding the target has moved or defences have been alerted or even enhanced and chose to shorten the warning time?
i wonder if the IDF/AF hit their target in spite of an Ilyushin possibly running interference?

Be lucky
David

Pontius Navigator 18th Sep 2018 18:36

Using air corridors and approach paths is a well used tactic, one the Israeli have used several times before.

F-16GUY 18th Sep 2018 19:44


Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur (Post 10252017)
Perhaps the Israelies got sick of Ivan tipping off the Syrians about targets and finding the target has moved or defences have been alerted or even enhanced and chose to shorten the warning time?
i wonder if the IDF/AF hit their target in spite of an Ilyushin possibly running interference?

Be lucky
David

It was also a similar S-200 (SA-5) system that downed an Israeli F-16I not so long time ago.

pattern_is_full 20th Sep 2018 06:32

Eerily, one of the early novels about a nuclear apocalypse and the aftermath, Alas, Babylon, triggers its war with an errant Sidewinder missile firing over...... Latakia, Syria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alas,_Babylon

59 years on, and still the sore festers.

Nomad2 20th Sep 2018 16:46

Most people will not know what an IL-20 is, but for info, it's not a jet.
It's actually a variant of the IL-18, so it's a four engine, low wing turboprop. In layout and size, similar to a Vanguard.

Pontius Navigator 20th Sep 2018 20:25

Nomad, more like a Britannia, than the Vanguard.






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Melchett01 20th Sep 2018 20:36


Originally Posted by melmothtw (Post 10251923)
When you're in cahoots with the target, that's all the warning you're going to get.

No warning ... the COOT is a SIGINT platform!! I would have thought the crew was potentially the most aware of anyone not sitting in an Israeli cockpit!

F-16GUY 20th Sep 2018 20:46


Originally Posted by Melchett01 (Post 10254111)


No warning ... the COOT is a SIGINT platform!! I would have thought the crew was potentially the most aware of anyone not sitting in an Israeli cockpit!

Most likely the COOT was not sniffing for red systems. The SA-5 was designed to hit transport size/type targets like the COOT, and I don't think the COOT is carrying any type of counter measures. Furthermore, even with some RWR gear available and indication of an inbound missile, the COOT i to slow to defeat the missile by maneuvers alone.

Pontius Navigator 21st Sep 2018 15:07

F16Guy, I would be surprised if they filtered out friendlies, more likely their systems were shut down if they were on recovery. Not unusual to unload the 'take' once off task ready for a quick seaplane and into analysis and debrief.

Just This Once... 21st Sep 2018 19:53


Originally Posted by F-16GUY (Post 10254119)
...the COOT i to slow to defeat the missile by maneuvers alone.

Reasonably sure that, once detected / sufficient time, the SA-5 can be defeated by a manoeuvring large aircraft...


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