Getting The Chop
 

Now I appreciate there are at least two meanings to "Getting The Chop". The first and most obvious one is simply getting killed. However I am more interested in the other well known one in he RAF when one was thrown off a particular course. At one time it was thought that around 40% of potential pilots got "chopped" during training. It is these people who I am interested in. I can remember all sorts of threats concerning failure during the 1950's when National Service was mandatory. One in particular was that if you got chopped you ended up serving the reminder of your two years as an AC2 in the cookhouse. I know this didn't happen in fact, as I met a couple of chaps who ended up variously employed in admin training and one as an AEO on Javelins.

So I am sure there must be a few lurking out there on Prune, what happened to you?

AEO on Javs? I don't think so......

That's like being Assistant Families Officer at Saxa Vord.

When I went through South Cerney in April 1960 my contemporaries had this threat hanging over them. There being National Service Cardington was on the cards.
Halfway through the course National Service was suspended so the threat evaporated; and so did half the course as they chopped themselves.

Well I did share a drink or 2 with an ex-AEO who said he flew on Javs; the ex-Jav navs and pilots also assembled at the bar didn't seem concerned with their old friend's claims. An aircraft well-before my time but they did have good tales of the Jav, especially the explosions when trying to start the thing.

I thought you meant like when I went to Ely.

The AC2 in the cook house threat did not only apply to National Servicemen but Direct Entry bods as well if they had not completed two years service when the chop came down!
AEO there were certainly more than one as I remember coming across around eight trainee AEO's in a Varsity/Valetta that had that had dropped into West Malling with engine trouble in the mid/late 50's.

I thought you meant as in my trip to Ely.

AEOs were the new breed of signaller for the V-bombers.

Having read the excellent The Arnold Scheme about RAF recruits learning to fly in the US, I note that those washed out from pilot training remustered in Canada. While many went on to retrain and became single-winged aircrew of assorted flavours, a number ended up undertaking general duties, including cleaning or kitchen duties, at various RCAF stations until they were demobbed in 1945-46. Now while on the one hand it would have been a safe posting, for those who joined up to serve their country in its time of need and were desperate to do something worthwhile it must have felt like a real kick in the teeth.

I have a friend who was on my nav course at Gaydon in 69. He had been chopped as a pilot (at Linton, I think) and then got chopped from our nav course.

He went on to have a full career as a combat pilot, first in the Israeli Air Force, then the SAAF, the RhodesianAF, the Sri Lankan Air Force, then in various clandestine jobs for the CIA and lots more Flown everything in combat from Hueys to Meteors and Mig 21s

Cant help thinking he was somewhat of a loss to the RAF, but somehow I doubt if he ever regretted the way things turned out

Not quite the RAF but my late father-in-law [SSGT Edward Potocki] was undergoing pilot training at civilian school in California under the umbrella of the Air Force on Ryan PT-22's. One day the four companies of his Class intake were called to parade [about 150 studs] and after a brief introduction, the officer in charge ordered A and B companies left turn and return to your pilot training. C and D companies right turn and prepare to depart for Aerial Gunnery School!.

He protested to be told that the AAC is your master and you will proceed as ordered or spend the rest of the war on KP! He went on to become a Flight Engineer on B-17's with 483rd BG in Italy only to be severely wounded in 1944 over the target in Northern Italy. Became an engineer with NASA including Apollo 13 event..

To his dying day he resented being "chopped" at flight school...

Throughout flying training I had a few 'chop rides', Then as an examiner - instructor in later life had to end the careers of a few aspiring aircrew. If they asked, over a beer (or two- remember those days) I would explain, additionally to the debrief, that it was preferable to chop now than attend a funeral later. Most understood and agreed their time had come to gracefully select another path.

Hubstrasse, indeed once they get over the crushing blow of being chopped, and the loss of any direction in their career, they often have a feeling of relief as that pressure has been removed.

Military​​​ flying training is like an increasingly steep slope. Most can manage the first part then the pace picks up until they reach a wall. Later, with out the pressure, in a different situation they succeed. I knew two navs, one became a helo pilot the other fixed wing although later killed himself.

Look at the number of fast jet navs that cross over to civilian pilot.

Echoing TTNs story, one nav on our course eventually got pilot training and went to Buccaneers before going Civi.

There was also the "chopper" girlfriend. One girl at a teacher training college in Lincoln, every Towers cadet she went out with got the chop from flying training. Pretty girl as I recall

It looks as if he might still have had a choice if he had been in B Company......

Jack

...unfortunately for him not in B but C company. I have his flight school book with picture of them all including Ed..

DOF

Could you have meant as a RO on Javelins.

ACW

I am afraid I don't know. I was told by someone else that that is what became of him. I was a long time ago and I could be wrong but somehow I don't think so.

Certainly possible for an RO to end up as an AEO I would have thought

Perhaps the originator of this Thread meant Radar/Radio Observer who I seem to recall wore a badge with 'RO' on it?

Old Duffer

Hi Old Duffer. What I originally said that a chap on a pilots course got chopped and latter I heard he had emerged as an AEO on Javelins not an RO.

At the time(1957 at Turnhill) there was a complication known as National Service and a common threat held over our heads was, if you got chopped off the course you would still be required to complete two years service. Further more as you were actually only an AC2 General Duties and just an "acting Pilot Officer" you reverted to the rank of AC2 and you could then find yourself washing dishes in the Airman's Mess. I am not aware of this happening to anyone and most that got chopped handed in their kit and were accompanied to the main gate where there F1250 was taken from them and they again became a civilian. I am aware of a few that did stay in and chose a different trade. I have put this paragraph in as I have had a couple of PM's asking for clarification.

I worked with a couple of ex-Javelin ROs in NATS - Bob Houghton ( now deceased ) and John MacDermott, who I believe is also deceased. At LHR we also had 2 ex-Javelin navs, Derek Harriss ( not misspelt! ) and Terry Quantrill.

Yes, your view is fair Hub. However, there is often (always?) a tremendous mix of pressures upon trainee Mil aircrew that effect their performance in training. In a career of mostly Mil aviation, I have seen trainees go from bottom of the pile to the top and be very successful, buffoons promoted to get them out of flying, and also top tyro's go from the top to...dead, killed by their own errors.:sad: Certainly, the RAF of the 60's onwards was able to chose it's trainees with the basic abilities and potential. I am sure that many of the high percentage "chopped" in training were just victims of the system. Certainly, many were unlucky to go through during periods of low demand! :(

OAP

Surprised BEagle hasn't expressed a view on this topic yet.

Mogwi, I for one would love to hear how you managed that. I had a chum who did it the reverse way to you, a few years after you I am guessing.

t7a wrote: A typical 237 OCU staff comment....:rolleyes:

My father instructed as a Sgt Pilot at Middleton St George in the early fifties and in later life, told me he had 'chopped' guys for their own longevity. When it came to my turn to 'chop' people, his advice was if it was justified to just step forward and do it. I recall one chap who came over to our table and the Sailors (Mariners?) restaurant in HKG and told me it was the best thing that ever happened to him and I took a big load off his shoulders.

I was an instructor at a basic FTS in the midlands, when Air Marshal Sir Patrick Dunn was C-in-C. The new doctrine was that the Command was chopping too many students and effectively that there were no bad students just bad instructors.

The school had rather a family atmosphere and (I think) a low chop rate. For all that, there was one student whom we all wanted to chop. The student in question was a bit of a BS merchant, did not seem to be listening to instruction (we most of us flew with him) and failed the odd check ride. He seemed to have natural ability. He was at least once trailled by an instructor because we suspected he was wasting or misusing his solo sorties. My own view was he was actually something of a psychopath. The nub of the problem was one of Personal Qualities. We agreed that we could not see him as a responsible aircraft captain; we saw him as bound to be the death of someone in due course and we feared that someone might not even be him.

With the doctrine at the time, we could not chop him from training. The school closed and I was posted. It would take some research for me to put a name on him now. At the time I had an interesting overseas tour to go to, so I made no attempt to learn if our forebodings were justified.

Sir Patrick Dunn refused his next posting as an overseas C-in-C and took early retirement. As far as we were concerned, being miles below his pay grade, we thought him twice a failure.

All the Instructors I know, both Military and Civilian including myself never really sweated the guys we chopped, but everyone had a story of the guy they should not have passed.....

Jenkins.

Had lunch with "Sooty's" owner recently at the pub in Manaccan. Life was more fun in those days.

whom

In training in the 60s a good number of my nav course were chopped pilots, several didn't make it through nav training. Later, as an instructor 70% of my nav course were chopped pilots. All scraped through the basics but in the end only 10% graduated.

The difficult thing is we would have chopped most of them on day 1. One we would have chopped graduated but never made it to a front line sqn; one we would have passed failed. Using just intuition alone would have saved them a lot of stress. One went Provost and another Engineer. An Army psychologist had observed years before that experienced instructors could assess potential failures early on. My daughter at OASC observed that there was more work rejecting a candidate than in passing them.

When I was at nav school a stude on another course got chopped for fiddling his astro. Basically he got a gee fix which he plotted as a three line fix, then entered plausible astro figures which replaced the garbage he had obtained when shooting his own astro. He was chopped not only because of his ineptitude but because of his lack of integrity. What really annoyed me was that instead of being out on his ear he was offered RAF Regiment. I was still wearing my Regiment flashes as I went through the course and I took great exception to the idea that somehow or other a Regiment officer didn't need the same level of integrity as a navigator. I brought this up with my course commander and asked if anything could be done, but was basically told to wind my neck in.

No idea what happened to him in the Regiment - I hope he didn't end up killing one of his own blokes because of some sin of omission which he had covered up.

TTN, promotion and posting is always the easy option.

We had a nav chopped as well who went Regiment. He was found not guilty at his Court Martial in 1972.

He sought other employment not long afterwards.