Helicopter crash - Lively Island (FI, 1982)
 

Hello all,

Recently, a friend of mine who was there in 1982 (and was in charge of surveying the Argentine crash sites shortly after the war) told me he found on June 22, 1982 a Puma wreck north (or NE) of Lively Island.

I am pretty puzzled about it, because no Argentine Puma was lost there. Or even near there.

I am looking for the fate of Puma AE-505, shot down on May 9, 1982, at 1907z, by a Sea Dart launched from HMS Coventry. Coventry and HMS Broadsword were at the time S of the islands capital: Broadsword detected the helo over land and near Port Harriet and transmitted the helo position via link. Coventry then gained the contact and launched a single Sea Dart, which travelled 13 mn and impacted the helo near Port Pleasant (probably over land, according to Coventry´s BoI) - considerable distance from Lively Island.

It was the first Sea Dart kill ever. All crewmembers were lost.

According to my friend (who was very kind to dig out his own notes from that time), the Puma remains were burned out and no crew were identified.

Oddly enough, the Argentine Army always considered the helo crashed in the water, so no question was ever asked about this one.

I am aware some Ppruners were deployed down south after the 1982 war. Anyone remember about a crash site on Lively Island? Or have further info about this Argentine Army Puma AE-505? I think it could be very important for the relatives to know the full story.

Regards!

What I've found via various sources. On the morning of the 9 May two Sea Harriers from HMS Hermes were sent to bomb Stanley but failed to accomplish due cloud over the target. During their return to Hermes they detected a surface contact by radar which turned out to be the Argentinian fishing vessel Narwal. The aircraft attacked using bombs and cannon. One bomb hit the trawler but failed to explode because of being dropped from too low an altitude. Two other Sea Harriers also attacked with cannon leaving the ship crippled. Seaman Contramaestre Omar Rupp was killed and others injured. A Sea King let down a Royal Marine boarding party and took over the ship. The presence of an Argentinian Naval officer plus certain documents confirmed the ship’s use in gathering intelligence. The prisoners were returned to Argentinia via Montevideo on 2 June.

In the afternoon of the 9 May a Puma from Stanley attempted to find and help the Narwal and was shot down by the Coventry into the sea in Choiseul Sound (Lively Island is at the mouth of Choiseul Sound). No trace was ever found of the aircraft or three crew. The crash site is given as due north of Lively Island and close to the mainland. Pilot First Leut. Roberto Fiorito, copilot First Leut. Juan Buschiazzo were the first Argentinian Army officers to be killed in the Falklands area, crewman Sgt. Raul Dimotta. .

Much of the information comes from "Argentine Fight for the Falklands" by Martin Middlebrook.

Thanks a lot Megan.

According to Coventry BoI, AE-505 was engaged near Port Pleasant. But a Puma wreck was found on Lively Island. Around 17 nm distance.

That would be one of the aircraft lost 23 May I'd presume. Puma losses during the conflict, all Argentinean.

3 April - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down at Grytviken, South Georgia by Royal Marine small arms fire.
9 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (4.10 pm). Crew of three lost.
21 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 badly damaged on ground near Mount Kent in same attack by Sqdn Ldr Pook and Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3's using 30mm cannon (8.00 am). Destroyed on 26th in same position by Sqdn Ldr Pook using CBU's.
23 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 flew into ground near Shag Cove House, West Falkland attempting to evade Flt Lt Morgan RAF in No.800 NAS Sea Harrier (10.30 am). All crew escaped.
23 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 also in same incident near Shag Cove House, West Falkland damaged on ground by Flt Lt Morgan with 30mm cannon (10.30 am). Then believed shortly destroyed by Lt Cmdr Gedge and Lt Cmdr Braithwaite RN in No.801 Sea Harriers with more cannon fire
30 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down by SAS with Stinger missile two miles north of Mount Kent. 6 passengers killed, crew survived. Tail section and rotor blades reported as still there twenty years later.

I think the parents would be aware of the story. The Presidential heliport is named in honour of Roberto Mario Fiorito, the PIC of AE-505. Mother on the left with the President, Cristina Fernandez

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...io_Fiorito.jpg

Another pic includes his Father, on the left.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011...ina1-jumbo.jpg
I'd suggest on the mainland, not on Lively Island, as he says north of the island. Snap of Chinook wreckage north of Mt. Kent.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/...jVgHlQ21U=h720
.

Hello Megan,

I am positive the relatives have no clue about what really happend with the Puma, or where exactly was shot down. In fact, they believe the helo was shot down over sea, near Sea Lion Island.

If i match Coventry´s BoI with Broadsword log (Coventry´s log was lost), this is what happened:

http://i67.tinypic.com/e0jpk2.jpg

Lively (Boungaville) is circled, some 17 miles south of the engagement area.

All others helos lost were accounted for:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2lawsgz.jpg

A mistery is in place!

Best regards,
Mariano

Interesting decsription " North (or NE) of Lively Island" - did he mean in the North/North East of Lively or one of the islands in that area (Including, in this context, the interestingly named North East Island)

The following is the speech made by the President at the heliport opening. You might note that she says Fiorito "disappeared", that also implies the aircraft "disappeared". If the aircraft had crashed on land there would be crew remains of some sort.

https://translate.google.com/transla...on&prev=search

Sadly, he does not remember and his personal notes were not accurate in the location.

The info must be there somewhere, because he was in an official task, and reporting the findings to an higher HQ. I am sure, also, Avenger flight OC reported the locations to his HQ too.

Regards!

My guess he is referring to one of the two Pumas at the Mount Kent location which is north east of Lively. If AE-505 had come down on land it would have been located.

No. He is positive about a Puma wreck on Lively. Really, he was looking for HMS Fearless LCU Foxtrot 4, lost on June 8th, 1982 in that general area. Regards,

Could it have been a misidentification of undercarriage?

See following post from 2009 on Keymags.

https://forum.keypublishing.com/show...64#post1356464

Could the undercarriage have been the nosewheel of Canberra B-108 that was misidentified as being from a Puma? (Double wheels)

http://www.eliteukforces.info/images...t/puma-hc2.jpg

http://plane-crazy.k-hosting.co.uk/A...63-B2-B6+1.jpg

Marcantilan, In your opening post you said,Now in your latest post you say,The two statements obviously don't agree, with the exception of AE-505 all the Pumas lost are accounted for with physical wreckage. AE-505 certainly did not crash on Lively given the Presidents speech. Have a read through this thread, you'll see in the heat of battle and the fog of war even the participants are not too sure what may have occurred.

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-hist...ash-sites.html

Very interesting info TEEEJ. I am going to contact Griffiths911 (I know him) to try to clear the picture.

Sorry, I can´t see the contradiction. As the President´s speech, believe me, she had no clue.

No problem, Marcantilan. Good luck with your search for info.

Hello,

According to Coventry´s report of the time, the engagement was also at a range of 13 nm.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...a1aeb31b07.jpg
(DEFE 67-126)

If I recall correct, Woodward´s book mentions the same distance.

13 nm is the correct range, if the helo was engaged over Port Pleasant AND north of Lively:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...ead5db79d0.jpg

Thoughts?

Thirteen miles also agrees with the point given in Choiseul Sound where the aircraft is said to have gone down. Without identifiable wreckage any assumptions are pointless. Don your scuba gear and start diving.

I researched the location of my brothers death in a fire fight in Vietnam. The after action report gave one location and the regimental daily diary gave another, about one kilometre apart. I can well imagine the difficulty a patrol might have in navigating on foot in thick jungle, so perhaps the after action report made by the patrol leader is in error, Who knows. Media report gave the event happening 160 kilometres distant. Talking to the other participants they described the physical environment perfectly, six foot diameter tree and prominent track alignment, the only trouble being when we visited the site the thick tropical jungle that had been in existence at the time had been cleared and was now grassland. So the exact site will never be known.

Impressive snap.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...51ba81692e.jpg


Captain Pablo Carballo, in the left plane, and Lieutenant Carlos Rinke, right, skimmed just a few feet above the water to avoid radar detection. Both pilots survived because the Sea Wolf missile system on HMS Broadsword was unable to choose between their A-4s when they became visible on the radar.The aircrafts released one bomb each. One missed the target, while the other one hit the Broadsword, in spite of the intense anti-aircraft fire.

Update. I´ve been in contact with Ken and no Canberra parts weres on Lively Island. The mistery remaims...

I went to the Falklands for the first time in December 1993 as a member of a Sea King SAR crew. The crew had an interest in 'aircraft wreck tourism' and sought out as many wreck sites as we could - we were guided by the book "Air War South Atlantic" by Ethell and Price. We looked many times for any evidence of the Puma over Lively Island (which if memory serves me correctly was apparently shot down over Choiseul Sound) but never found anything. It was the only one we looked for which we never found.

Excellent info! Thanks a lot!

hope to be there later this year... if poss we'll look around

https://www.infobae.com/sociedad/201...on-de-rescate/

The investigation in the local news (the top ranked and most viewed online newspaper in Argentina)

A pic of the handsome looking Marcantilan is in the middle of the article.

Regards!

Marcantilian,

Would you like to quantify the following statement from your article and supply proof?

Oh no, it is not my article. I am just mentioned on it. Regarding the rafts, I am with Dave Morgan's versión (Hostile Skies).

UPDATE: The author of the article (again, is not my article) is going to remove the part about the raft attack by British palnes.

Regards,

Hi Marcantilan,

Thanks for the update.

It doesn't do anyone any favours from either side when baseless stuff like that is written.
Apart from that, the rest of the article is quite interesting.

WT.

I'm going to the Falklands in February with my hiking gear. Where should I look?

Navaleye,

Off any beaten track or road, VERY carefully everywhere you tread...

Hello all,
I have been researching the Canberra B-108 shoot down for over 10 years, and sometimes come across references to the nose wheel on Lively as possibly being from it. It seems that the Canberra crashed somewhere south of Whale Point and north of Lively Island, because some wreckage washed up at the former location over the years. Whether or not some ended up on Lively Island seems unlikely to me. I spoke with a local whose Dad lived on Lively for many years after my trip down to the Falklands last October. He said there had been some aircraft wreckage there from the Dagger C-433 piloted by Jose Ardiles but knew nothing of any Puma or Canberra pieces.

I hope eventually both the fate of the AE-505 and B-108 wrecks can be resolved.

"Off any beaten track or road, VERY carefully everywhere you tread..."

talk to the locals - they know where any mines are

even only suspected areas are roped off and have warning signs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_m...lkland_Islands I don't think anyone has been hurt in many years........... 6 peopel were killed or injured demining straight after the war but only one minor injury in recent years (a Zimbabwean de-miner)

"Many of the Falkland Islanders opposed the demining operation. They stated that as the mine fields were clearly marked and there was little demand for the land it would be more cost effective and better for the environment for the mines to remain. There are fears that opening up mine fields to tourists and farmers will lead to habitat destruction."

see

https://www.facebook.c@m/pg/TheCanbe...=page_internal

Replace the @ with an O

When I was back there this time last year, I was informed that the only minefields that were not now cleared were the ones around Stanley airfield. These were on/near the beaches and subject to shifting sands but are well marked.

Didn't spot a single three-legged sheep during my stay.

mog

Appears to be the remains of an A-4 Skyhawk drop tank.

Hi all, could you ask if anyone has a copy of Flypast Magazine, September 1983 issue?

I am looking for a certain article there (Falklands Archeology). It looks like it mentions the AE-505 crash site.

Thanks a lot!

Mariano

Mariano,

I have PM'ed you with a possible source for a copy.

Thread drift but have you read Dr Jorge Boveda's book in the Latin America at War series on the Armada's Operations in the Falklands/Malvinas conflict. If so, do you recommend it?

Thanks a lot!

About Jorge Boveda´s book, well, I know Jorge and I am the one who pointed Jorge to Helion. The book is good, focused in the Argentine Navy culture. It is a new approach to the conflict.

Best!
Mariano