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Helicopter crash - Lively Island (FI, 1982)
Hello all,
Recently, a friend of mine who was there in 1982 (and was in charge of surveying the Argentine crash sites shortly after the war) told me he found on June 22, 1982 a Puma wreck north (or NE) of Lively Island. I am pretty puzzled about it, because no Argentine Puma was lost there. Or even near there. I am looking for the fate of Puma AE-505, shot down on May 9, 1982, at 1907z, by a Sea Dart launched from HMS Coventry. Coventry and HMS Broadsword were at the time S of the islands capital: Broadsword detected the helo over land and near Port Harriet and transmitted the helo position via link. Coventry then gained the contact and launched a single Sea Dart, which travelled 13 mn and impacted the helo near Port Pleasant (probably over land, according to Coventry´s BoI) - considerable distance from Lively Island. It was the first Sea Dart kill ever. All crewmembers were lost. According to my friend (who was very kind to dig out his own notes from that time), the Puma remains were burned out and no crew were identified. Oddly enough, the Argentine Army always considered the helo crashed in the water, so no question was ever asked about this one. I am aware some Ppruners were deployed down south after the 1982 war. Anyone remember about a crash site on Lively Island? Or have further info about this Argentine Army Puma AE-505? I think it could be very important for the relatives to know the full story. Regards! |
What I've found via various sources. On the morning of the 9 May two Sea Harriers from HMS Hermes were sent to bomb Stanley but failed to accomplish due cloud over the target. During their return to Hermes they detected a surface contact by radar which turned out to be the Argentinian fishing vessel Narwal. The aircraft attacked using bombs and cannon. One bomb hit the trawler but failed to explode because of being dropped from too low an altitude. Two other Sea Harriers also attacked with cannon leaving the ship crippled. Seaman Contramaestre Omar Rupp was killed and others injured. A Sea King let down a Royal Marine boarding party and took over the ship. The presence of an Argentinian Naval officer plus certain documents confirmed the ship’s use in gathering intelligence. The prisoners were returned to Argentinia via Montevideo on 2 June.
In the afternoon of the 9 May a Puma from Stanley attempted to find and help the Narwal and was shot down by the Coventry into the sea in Choiseul Sound (Lively Island is at the mouth of Choiseul Sound). No trace was ever found of the aircraft or three crew. The crash site is given as due north of Lively Island and close to the mainland. Pilot First Leut. Roberto Fiorito, copilot First Leut. Juan Buschiazzo were the first Argentinian Army officers to be killed in the Falklands area, crewman Sgt. Raul Dimotta. . Much of the information comes from "Argentine Fight for the Falklands" by Martin Middlebrook. |
Thanks a lot Megan.
According to Coventry BoI, AE-505 was engaged near Port Pleasant. But a Puma wreck was found on Lively Island. Around 17 nm distance. |
The only Puma wreck that I am aware of from the conflict is on West Falkland, roughly in the area near Port Howard on a ridge, AFAIR. IIRC, it was shot down by a Harrier/Sea Harrier. We used to fly over it regularly when I was down there in ‘88. If your friend identified the other wreck as a Puma, then it sounds as if this is AE-505. 17 Miles is close enough, given the possible confusion that may have occurred during the campaign. Unless anyone positively saw it impacting the water on that day, it almost certainly is your missing Puma |
The only Puma wreck that I am aware of from the conflict is on West Falkland 3 April - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down at Grytviken, South Georgia by Royal Marine small arms fire. 9 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down over Choiseul Sound by Sea Dart fired by HMS Coventry (4.10 pm). Crew of three lost. 21 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 badly damaged on ground near Mount Kent in same attack by Sqdn Ldr Pook and Flt Lt Hare RAF in 1(F) Sqdn Harrier GR.3's using 30mm cannon (8.00 am). Destroyed on 26th in same position by Sqdn Ldr Pook using CBU's. 23 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 flew into ground near Shag Cove House, West Falkland attempting to evade Flt Lt Morgan RAF in No.800 NAS Sea Harrier (10.30 am). All crew escaped. 23 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 also in same incident near Shag Cove House, West Falkland damaged on ground by Flt Lt Morgan with 30mm cannon (10.30 am). Then believed shortly destroyed by Lt Cmdr Gedge and Lt Cmdr Braithwaite RN in No.801 Sea Harriers with more cannon fire 30 May - Puma SA.330L of CAB 601 shot down by SAS with Stinger missile two miles north of Mount Kent. 6 passengers killed, crew survived. Tail section and rotor blades reported as still there twenty years later. |
I think it could be very important for the relatives to know the full story. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...io_Fiorito.jpg Another pic includes his Father, on the left. https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011...ina1-jumbo.jpg a Puma wreck north (or NE) of Lively Island https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/...jVgHlQ21U=h720 . |
Hello Megan,
I am positive the relatives have no clue about what really happend with the Puma, or where exactly was shot down. In fact, they believe the helo was shot down over sea, near Sea Lion Island. If i match Coventry´s BoI with Broadsword log (Coventry´s log was lost), this is what happened: http://i67.tinypic.com/e0jpk2.jpg Lively (Boungaville) is circled, some 17 miles south of the engagement area. All others helos lost were accounted for: http://i66.tinypic.com/2lawsgz.jpg A mistery is in place! Best regards, Mariano |
Interesting decsription " North (or NE) of Lively Island" - did he mean in the North/North East of Lively or one of the islands in that area (Including, in this context, the interestingly named North East Island)
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The following is the speech made by the President at the heliport opening. You might note that she says Fiorito "disappeared", that also implies the aircraft "disappeared". If the aircraft had crashed on land there would be crew remains of some sort.
https://translate.google.com/transla...on&prev=search |
Recently, a friend of mine who was there in 1982 (and was in charge of surveying the Argentine crash sites shortly after the war) told me he found on June 22, 1982 a Puma wreck north (or NE) of Lively Island. |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 10161312)
Well if you can ask him for a more precise location I am sure someone can go and take a look and post some photos and part serial numbers. it sound sufficiently important - especially since it implies that, if correct, the crew remains will still be in place. The info must be there somewhere, because he was in an official task, and reporting the findings to an higher HQ. I am sure, also, Avenger flight OC reported the locations to his HQ too. Regards! |
My guess he is referring to one of the two Pumas at the Mount Kent location which is north east of Lively. If AE-505 had come down on land it would have been located.
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Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10162467)
My guess he is referring to one of the two Pumas at the Mount Kent location which is north east of Lively. If AE-505 had come down on land it would have been located.
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Could it have been a misidentification of undercarriage?
See following post from 2009 on Keymags. On my second deployment to the Falklands in 1982 I went ashore on Lively Island and was shown part of an undercarriage that the locals said was from a downed Argentine Canberra. They told us the Canberra crashed with such force the earth shook noticeably. Can they be right about it being a Canberra? Did any other Argentine aircraft crash on Lively Island? Could the undercarriage have been the nosewheel of Canberra B-108 that was misidentified as being from a Puma? (Double wheels) http://www.eliteukforces.info/images...t/puma-hc2.jpg http://plane-crazy.k-hosting.co.uk/A...63-B2-B6+1.jpg |
Marcantilan, In your opening post you said,
told me he found on June 22, 1982 a Puma wreck north (or NE) of Lively Island He is positive about a Puma wreck on Lively https://www.pprune.org/aviation-hist...ash-sites.html |
Originally Posted by TEEEJ
(Post 10162780)
Could it have been a misidentification of undercarriage?
See following post from 2009 on Keymags. https://forum.keypublishing.com/show...64#post1356464 Could the undercarriage have been the nosewheel of Canberra B-108 that was misidentified as being from a Puma? (Double wheels) http://www.eliteukforces.info/images...t/puma-hc2.jpg http://plane-crazy.k-hosting.co.uk/A...63-B2-B6+1.jpg |
Originally Posted by megan
(Post 10163030)
Marcantilan, In your opening post you said,Now in your latest post you say,The two statements obviously don't agree, with the exception of AE-505 all the Pumas lost are accounted for with physical wreckage. AE-505 certainly did not crash on Lively given the Presidents speech. Have a read through this thread, you'll see in the heat of battle and the fog of war even the participants are not too sure what may have occurred.
https://www.pprune.org/aviation-hist...ash-sites.html |
Originally Posted by Marcantilan
(Post 10164842)
Very interesting info TEEEJ. I am going to contact Griffiths911 (I know him) to try to clear the picture.
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The encyclopaedic book* “Falklands The air war” by R Burden/M Draper/D Rough/C Smith records on page 65;- AE505 “ the destroyer brought the puma down from extreme range with a Sea Dart.” The important information in this account is that an exterme range for Sea Dart was 35-40 miles, as opposed to the 13 miles mentioned above. I believe that a range of 35-40 miles could only have achieved, in a near costal location, if the engagement took place over Lively Island. * This book was written before the publication of Coventry’s BOI and was based on numerous interviews with those who took part on both sides. Unsurprisingly it’s accounts correlate well with subsequently published information. Also remember that a number of those on HMS Coventry who actually witnessed this action on their radar screen, sadly didn’t survive the conflict. So where have the various conflicting accounts originated from? |
Originally Posted by Bagheera S
(Post 10165900)
The encyclopaedic book* “Falklands The air war” by R Burden/M Draper/D Rough/C Smith records on page 65;- AE505 “ the destroyer brought the puma down from extreme range with a Sea Dart.” The important information in this account is that an exterme range for Sea Dart was 35-40 miles, as opposed to the 13 miles mentioned above. I believe that a range of 35-40 miles could only have achieved, in a near costal location, if the engagement took place over Lively Island. * This book was written before the publication of Coventry’s BOI and was based on numerous interviews with those who took part on both sides. Unsurprisingly it’s accounts correlate well with subsequently published information. Also remember that a number of those on HMS Coventry who actually witnessed this action on their radar screen, sadly didn’t survive the conflict. So where have the various conflicting accounts originated from? According to Coventry´s report of the time, the engagement was also at a range of 13 nm. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...a1aeb31b07.jpg (DEFE 67-126) If I recall correct, Woodward´s book mentions the same distance. 13 nm is the correct range, if the helo was engaged over Port Pleasant AND north of Lively: https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmf...ead5db79d0.jpg Thoughts? |
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