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A question or two for those in opposition to face fungus. Are there any specific triumphs in the RAF’s 100 year history that can be attributed to lack of beards, or where a beard would have eroded the chance of success? Are there any obvious ways in the 100 years to come that the presence of a beard might spell disaster? |
stevef,
Bedpacks once a year!!! Used to be every day when I joined, not a great problem but it did not make us any better/efficient! Times they are a'changing! Bill |
Originally Posted by BEagle
(Post 10545564)
Presumably someone will produce guidance? Otherwise the RAF could find itself with a few ZZ Top lookalikes...
Pony tails next? |
Originally Posted by FantomZorbin
(Post 10545555)
Do the bearded folk have to cover the beard in Vaseline (other products are available!) before donning a face-wellie?
I know a couple of fireman, an SO15 officer and seen plenty SF with beards, none have had issues with smoke/CS getting in due to facial hair. |
Originally Posted by orca
(Post 10546201)
A question or two for those in opposition to face fungus. Are there any specific triumphs in the RAF’s 100 year history that can be attributed to lack of beards, or where a beard would have eroded the chance of success? Are there any obvious ways in the 100 years to come that the presence of a beard might spell disaster? |
The RN allows sailors 2 weeks to grow a 'substantial' beard - I could never have done that as after two weeks I have no more than an extended 5 o'clock shadow!
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Originally Posted by Davef68
(Post 10546570)
The RN allows sailors 2 weeks to grow a 'substantial' beard - I could never have done that as after two weeks I have no more than an extended 5 o'clock shadow!
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....912c83efe.jpeg |
Training Risky , he was seen going round and round in a vertical direction yesterday [ Thurs ] . The stude was saying '' Tiger at 8 o'clock low , 8 o'clock high , 8 o'clock low '' etc. 'til energy ran out .
rgds condor . |
Originally Posted by stevef
(Post 10545282)
Airmen leave because they're not allowed a beard? What! Perhaps they should grow some b****cks instead. God-knows how they'd have survived in the old Number 2 uniforms and had to share a billet & make bed packs once a year for the AOC's inspection. I can feel the snowflakes melting as I type... :ouch:
Servicemen PVR because they feel they would be better off working elsewhere. The RAF has to offer some perks to retain people and unfortunately we are haemorrhaging qualified and experienced guys quicker than they can be replaced. |
Oi, careful, I used to live in Little Snoring.....
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Originally Posted by Wander00
(Post 10549253)
Oi, careful, I used to live in Little Snoring.....
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Whilst it would have been preferable to allow this thread to stay dormant it now seems that the RAF’s hierarchy has decreed that beards are not compatible with the wearing of oxygen masks so they are now banned for all aircrew, at least in 1 & 2 Gps. Not sure if it’s ok for those rotary fellows. It seems it is ok for engineers etc who fly on aircraft to be bearded as they are not aircrew, even if they might have to use a mask in an emergency (much like the aircrew then). I’m sure it all makes sense to somebody but I don’t know whether they will apply the ruling to those who wear beards on religious grounds. It it will be interesting to see whether they extend the ruling to everyone on the grounds that their respirators might leak. I’m not sure how FAA jet pilots used to/ do cope? |
Oh, what a mess. At least aircrew will be identifiable by being clean-shaven (as gentlemen should be) without having to do high-G manouvres with their hands in the Bar. As for the rest ... tacky!!
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Originally Posted by Ken Scott
(Post 10605274)
Whilst it would have been preferable to allow this thread to stay dormant it now seems that the RAF’s hierarchy has decreed that beards are not compatible with the wearing of oxygen masks so they are now banned for all aircrew, at least in 1 & 2 Gps. Not sure if it’s ok for those rotary fellows. It seems it is ok for engineers etc who fly on aircraft to be bearded as they are not aircrew, even if they might have to use a mask in an emergency (much like the aircrew then). I’m sure it all makes sense to somebody but I don’t know whether they will apply the ruling to those who wear beards on religious grounds. It it will be interesting to see whether they extend the ruling to everyone on the grounds that their respirators might leak. I’m not sure how FAA jet pilots used to/ do cope? |
Just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there would be no beards in a high threat NBC environment.
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If someone wouldn’t mind passing on to the various AOCs that I took two different jets up to above FL400 today, wearing an oxygen mask, avec beard and funnly enough no one died. 95% of my Sqn brethren wear beards and there have been zero reported hypoxia incidence in the Xyears I’ve been here. Recent chamber course proved no issue either including the pre soak. If they don’t agree with the official ruling just say so rather than making up a b*****t excuses. ok - maybe the term ‘brethren’ isn’t appropriate ;-) |
No issues whatsoever wearing a beard under an oxygen mask. |
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Never mind oxygen, think novichok or whatever. If I had a beard, and NBC conditions were possible , I would be looking for a razor. I could always grow another beard if I survived.
Which is not an argument against beards, but an argument to retain the razor. |
I think what is making this such an emotive issue, is the lack of consistency across our organisation.How is it possible in an Air Force that is now so small, that we have VSO's knee jerking and coming to seemingly contradictory conclusions. Over the last 2 weeks there's been a myriad of different permutations to the beard / oxygen mask rulings, the latest being (I think):-
- All 1 Gp FJ pilots (Navy and RAF) are prohibited from wearing beards in aircraft that require oxygen masks. It's a simple issue of Flight Safety, and the risk to the relevant ODH/DDH is intolerable. - All 22 Gp pilots may however, continue to wear beards with oxygen masks. Presumably the Hawk and Texan don't have a similar Flight Safety issue. - Ignore the above if your religious beliefs require the wearing of a beard. Clearly, the safety issue no longer exists if 'your god has given you the nod', and the risk now becomes tolerable to the ODH/DDH. - Presumably naval clearance divers, SF parachutists & NBC personnel may continue to wear beards with their oxygen masks, because that's a different case altogether? - I'm guessing multi engine crews may continue to wear beards, but must now pass a yearly Combat Shaving Test, to prove they can complete a full shave and Don their emergency oxygen masks in a timely manner, in the event of an explosive decompression? If the VSOs really are going to start biting off on these very minor issues, citing phrases such as 'ALARP and tolerable' as their justification, it really should apply across the entirety of UK MOD? It really does make you wonder how the brains of some of these VSO individuals work. They've over-reacted to this extreme edge case scenario, yet seem content to ignore all of the really 'meaty' Flight Safety and manpower issues which are not ALARP, and are plain for all to see. Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees. PS I do hope the entirety of 1 Gp pilots change their denomination on paper, to make this issue magically disappear. |
Sikh and ye shall find?
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Air Canada tested beards on their aircrew in 2018 the report is online I believe, it showed no adverse O2 issue with either on demand or pressure systems. This is simply those at the top disagreeing with a policy and using Kneejerk reaction to block the issue.
Basically those at the top of 1Gp/2Gp are so out of touch with reality, they need to adapt and move on from the bloody 1980’s . Here is an idea pay for a study and stop being finger in the air wind blowing response artists ! |
What risk is made more likely or the results more severe by the presence or absence of facial hair? |
Please excuse me dusting off my cobwebs, and failing to comprehend the current civilian ‘fashion’ for facial hair, but ...
It looks untidy and, essentially, cr@p. |
Typhoondriver
Presumably naval clearance divers, SF parachutists & NBC personnel may continue to wear beards with their oxygen masks, because that's a different case altogether? When the safety of an individual might be jeopardised by his beard or moustache, such as in the wearing of oxygen or gas masks, it shall be modified in such a fashion as to accommodate the type of equipment to be worn. The Commanding Officer retains the authority to determine the requirement for an individual to shave, based on the Operational requirement at that time. Once ARTS testing has been completed, COs ARE to order the shaving of beards when the CBRN threat level is MEDIUM or higher. Other occasions, such as Operational Sea Training and/or similar exercises, in which the CBRN threat is LOW will not warrant the requirement to shave. If the individual refuses to modify their facial hair (or headdress) to the extent necessary to maintain their own safety and Operational Capability, then they may be disciplined. Should they continue to refuse, commanders should consider not deploying that individual into theatre or removing them from theatre if already deployed. Disciplinary action and non-deployment are in extremis measures that should be adopted incrementally. Beards or moustaches shall be shaved off if the conditions of Para 3818 sub para e cannot be met. The hair and beard may remain uncut, provided that the operational mission and safety are not jeopardised when it is required that individuals wear occupational and operational equipment such as a respirator, oxygen mask, combat/vehicle/flying helmet, hardhat, diving mask etc. When a hazard clearly exists, the hair and/or beard shall be modified to the degree necessary for wearing the required equipment, in order to meet safety requirements. Oh, and RAF Firefighters were forbidden to have beards under the current recent RAF beard policy - quite why the fools that released the policy didn’t listen to the advice on beard grooming products and needing ‘leak and flow’ checks as part of the process, is just beyond me. They did and now we find ourselves in this mess when common sense, and extant RN regulation, showed that there has been problems and hence regulation written to prevent it. As ever, myth and b0ll0x and being away from RN CoCS has thwarted the truth of policy on RN beards. Finally, why anyone would want to look like a scruffy Matelot or a similarly scruffy MP from Islington is beyond me too...:E |
Really? Never noticed anyone with a beard having an issue with HAHO jumps. Getting to the ramp edge with all the equipment can be a massive challenge, but the beard is trivial. Quite a few that operate the front end have been known to wear a beard and cope with the pre-breathing and beyond just fine. Beards and AEA is not new, novel or a contentious safety point. It may be new to some in the RAF but that alone does not make it a safety issue. This reminds me of PCS giving us a short jacket rather than a shirt, before making some of us tuck it into our trousers 'like we used to'. Change is just too much for some air officers. |
and failing to comprehend the current civilian ‘fashion’ for facial hair, |
Tankertrashnav wrote:
[…]and so my beard was probably a lot more hygienic than her hair. Didn't go down too well[…] |
I used to spend more time than I wanted as SLP in civil airports awaiting flights. One way of amusement was to count beards as people passed by. For adult males it was one in twelve and fairly constant and thus predictable.
Recent Gatwick observation puts it at about one in ten, although designer stubble confuses the matter somewhat. Not good on politicians, especially women. |
Originally Posted by langleybaston
(Post 10606641)
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Not good on politicians, especially women. BTW, I never vote for a politician with a beard. What are they trying to hide? Or am I just ‘anti-beard’? |
Really? Never noticed anyone with a beard having an issue with HAHO jumps. |
Testing the 'Velcro effect', were you? I am reliably informed that such an experiment would not be possible now as most ladies these days are devotees of the razor in that area ! |
Has anyone ever actually done leak and flow checks with and without a beard on O2 masks, firefighting BA or CBRN rig? In the sense that a report would be available identifying the actual (if any) degradation of performance? That would be a far more useful document for the thread than service dress regs. |
Originally Posted by orca
(Post 10607243)
Has anyone ever actually done leak and flow checks with and without a beard on O2 masks, firefighting BA or CBRN rig? In the sense that a report would be available identifying the actual (if any) degradation of performance? That would be a far more useful document for the thread than service dress regs. Fit testing basics - Respiratory protective equipment (RPE) |
I am not emotionally invested in this in any way, and frankly couldn’t care less about others’ facial hair choices. But I suspect that LJ is on to something with the HSE reference. This from HSG53: 82 The wearer needs to be clean-shaven around the face seal to achieve an effective fit when using tight-fitting face pieces. Training is a good opportunity to make employees aware of this. If workers have beards, or are unable to be clean-shaven, a tight-fitting device will not be suitable so an appropriate loose-fitting device should be chosen. Now, you can say the HSE publication is wrong, or that the Duty Holder can take a risk (because oxygen masks only act as ‘filtering devices’ on the very rare occasions when smoke and fumes occur), or that a case could be made that slight overpressure eliminates any risk, but to what benefit? That would be the question tested in any court case and that’s why these things can be difficult to go against. |
The HSE article covers systems that go negative when the wearer breaths in, risking contaminants being drawn in. An aircrew mask has flex seals that use the positive pressure provided by the system to push against the face and ensure that any leaks are outboard - ie the complete reverse of the HSE article.
AvMed have been happy with beards if you can achieve a suitable seal when tested. One presumes that any court case would bring in AvMed experience rather than an HSE document that may be used by a painter and decorator. If you pass the routine check fit with your mask / helmet / headset then all should be good for the DH. Incidentally, given the care, selective fitting and routine check fits most of us are used to then the civilian side where either a shovel or alien mask with a one-size-fits-nobody rating stuffed in a cubby as part of the basic aircraft fit looks a little more cavalier! |
Originally Posted by Easy Street
(Post 10607284)
I am not emotionally invested in this in any way, and frankly couldn’t care less about others’ facial hair choices. But I suspect that LJ is on to something with the HSE reference. This from HSG53: From experience with other topics on which the HSE has published guidance (for instance, fatigue management) I know that a very compelling case needs to be made before Duty Holders will go against a HSE ‘should’ (which is similar in meaning and legal effect to a MAA ‘should’). The quote above uses ‘needs’ and ‘will not’ which are unequivocal terms and leave even less (...no) room for manoeuvre. The only ‘should’ in that quote is one that probably excuses religious beards, on the basis that a loose-fitting device is impracticable. Now, you can say the HSE publication is wrong, or that the Duty Holder can take a risk (because oxygen masks only act as ‘filtering devices’ on the very rare occasions when smoke and fumes occur), or that a case could be made that slight overpressure eliminates any risk, but to what benefit? That would be the question tested in any court case and that’s why these things can be difficult to go against. RN firefighters (that is to say anyone at sea) are allowed beards. We simply test them to check that the mask fits, and they trim as necessary. |
Originally Posted by Easy Street
(Post 10607284)
I am not emotionally invested in this in any way, and frankly couldn’t care less about others’ facial hair choices. But I suspect that LJ is on to something with the HSE reference. This from HSG53: From experience with other topics on which the HSE has published guidance (for instance, fatigue management) I know that a very compelling case needs to be made before Duty Holders will go against a HSE ‘should’ (which is similar in meaning and legal effect to a MAA ‘should’). The quote above uses ‘needs’ and ‘will not’ which are unequivocal terms and leave even less (...no) room for manoeuvre. The only ‘should’ in that quote is one that probably excuses religious beards, on the basis that a loose-fitting device is impracticable. Now, you can say the HSE publication is wrong, or that the Duty Holder can take a risk (because oxygen masks only act as ‘filtering devices’ on the very rare occasions when smoke and fumes occur), or that a case could be made that slight overpressure eliminates any risk, but to what benefit? That would be the question tested in any court case and that’s why these things can be difficult to go against. Plenty of civvie pilots sporting face carpets (other mitigations in place). Not entirely sure that this decision has been particularly well researched from a risk management perspective. |
LJ, Deliberately being pedantic - but that link takes me to a page that simply says (at the bottom) that it is impossible to achieve a good seal with facial hair - not how this was found out, how good/ bad a seal could be achieved, when a bad seal mattered at all with the supply as it is... I can understand why folk may suppose a beard leads to problems - I just don’t think it’s ever been proved scientifically what they are. If we limit to FJ O2 masks for now does anyone know differently? |
I don’t know about science, but...
Previous posters have already alluded to the fact but I will echo the sentiments. I have spent the last two years flying with facial fluff. Admittedly it’s not exactly a full Brian Blessed but it is definitely a beard. I have not experienced any issues and regularly operate in a variety of height regimes. I understand that it polarises opinion but I think it is a welcome change. Besides, I have always hated shaving. BV |
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