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-   -   NATO, Germany and the VJTF (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/605487-nato-germany-vjtf.html)

ORAC 16th Feb 2018 07:10

NATO, Germany and the VJTF
 
German military short on tanks for NATO mission

The German military has secretly admitted that it can't fulfill its promises to NATO, according to documents leaked to Die Welt newspaper on Thursday.

The Bundeswehr is due to take over leadership of NATO's multinational Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF) at the start of next year, but doesn't have enough tanks, the Defense Ministry document said. Specifically, the Bundeswehr's ninth tank brigade in Münster only has nine operational Leopard 2 tanks — even though it promised to have 44 ready for the VJTF — and only three of the promised 14 Marder armored infantry vehicles.

The paper also revealed the reason for this shortfall: a lack of spare parts and the high cost and time needed to maintain the vehicles. It added that it was also lacking night-vision equipment, automatic grenade launchers, winter clothing and body armor.

The German air force is also struggling to cover its NATO duties, the document revealed. The Luftwaffe's main forces, the Eurofighter and Tornado fighter jets and its CH-53 transport helicopters, are only available for use an average of four months a year — the rest of the time the aircraft are grounded for repairs and rearmament........

Mark Galeotti, senior researcher and head of the Prague-based Center for European Security, said that "Germany's various military woes" were no secret to the rest of NATO. "For a long time, Germany has under-spent dramatically, and, let's be honest, wrapped itself in the mantle of its non-militarist foreign policy," he told DW, before adding that it had long been clear that the country hadn't been pulling its weight in the alliance.

According to the leaked document, the army would now be trying to cover its "capacity-relevant deficits out of the stocks of other units" — even though that would impact training and exercises elsewhere. But Galeotti said that tanks present a particular technical challenge that could not necessarily be met just by throwing money at the problem. "It's not just about buying the actual chunks of hardware, it's also about having precisely the spare parts, the technical infrastructure, the transporters, the refueling stations," he said. "Tanks are surprisingly temperamental for these great armored beasts of war, which is why this deficit can't quickly be made up, even if the money was available."

Given Germany's quasi-pacifist priorities (in NATO's military mission in Afghanistan, Berlin had a reputation among allies for keeping its troops out of harm's way), it is not surprising that the country should be cutting corners with tanks, Galeotti explained. "Tanks are nothing but war-fighting instruments," he said. "A soldier in a jeep can be used in humanitarian deployments in Africa, can do all kinds of things. A tank is just a tank. And it's that kind of outright military spending that is particularly where Germany has failed in the past two decades.".....

sidevalve 16th Feb 2018 07:21

Heinz Guderian must be turning in his grave.

Finningley Boy 16th Feb 2018 14:32

You'd think the Germans were rather more over their post war military prowess phobia by now. Curiously, they actually seemed more motivated and their Forces better maintained if heavily reliant on conscripts during the cold war? Indeed, they were even persuaded to be prepared to carry Tactical nuclear weapons, via their F-104s, Tornados and Pershing 1a & b missiles!

FB:)

Green Flash 16th Feb 2018 16:16

The entire German u-boat fleet is also laid up. And half their Tonkas too. Blimey, what about legendary German efficiency? :(

air pig 16th Feb 2018 16:38

Will not be marching east anytime soon then, given the Polish view of war reparations. well maybe marching, if they have enough boots?

unmanned_droid 16th Feb 2018 17:23

I suspect a lack of investment in their armed forces to support the European project. Without getting political, if Germany doesn't dole out the cash, no one does.

chopper2004 16th Feb 2018 18:26

Marine sub fleet not working
 
Well their navy are not having any joy either:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/enti...on/?no_cache=1

sidevalve 16th Feb 2018 19:07

Well, it's not as if the cupboard is bare:
German budget surplus highest since 1990 - BBC News

Heathrow Harry 17th Feb 2018 08:06

why would they spend on the military?

They have no delusions of Empire or World wide domination (lesson learnt)

The Russian threat is now over 1000 km further east than in the 1980's and there are two large countries in the way

They look at the dreadful bog the US managed to get into in Iraq and Syria and, quite reasonably, think they were wise to stay out

Sure times can change - but how long do you think it would take them to refurb all the kit they have - less than a year .............. and if you think the Russians are going to be on the Oder by end 2018 you've been at the white powder again

ORAC 17th Feb 2018 08:21


why would they spend on the military?
Hmm, because they legally committed to do so?

BEagle 17th Feb 2018 08:34

You don't seem to know that Germany has been involved in anti-IS operations in Syria and Iraq, as well as supporting operations in Mali, for quite a few years now.

Luftwaffe A310MRTT AAR support has been widely praised not just by German fighter bomber crews but also by other nations involved in the Sandpit Wars.

They had to leave Incirlik due to EU politics and are now elsewhere in the Middle East. I'm told that they weren't even allowed off base at Incz, which must have rather hit Basil, Pop's Leather and Mr.Rolex in the pocket - although the wives would have been spared bits of sundry brass tat and grubby carpets!

Transall 17th Feb 2018 09:13

Hi,


What is described in the first post of this thread does not correspond with my experience (Bundeswehr and Luftwaffe) with the Germans.


It makes me wonder who this Mark Galeotti and his Center for European Security are and what they are trying to achieve.


Best regards, Transall.

Heathrow Harry 17th Feb 2018 10:24

"they legally committed to do so"

What law ORAC??

ORAC 17th Feb 2018 12:22

It does not to be an Act Harry - they committed to be one of the Framework Natiosn for the VJTF and to maintain the nominated forces at the 24H readiness.

https://www.hertie-school.org/en/deb...tment-to-nato/

ORAC 19th Feb 2018 05:36

Storm Clouds Over Munich

......”Europeans, who comprise the majority of Munich’s participants, offered a vague, often confused picture of how they view their security priorities.

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker spoke grandly of making Europe “weltpolitikfähig,” coining a German word for making the EU a true global political player. German Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel echoed Juncker’s call for a more robust European security policy, saying that “as the only vegetarian in a world of meat-eaters we will have a difficult time.”

Juncker’s remarks betrayed the difficulty of realizing that ambition. “We must emancipate ourselves, but not from NATO and not from the U.S.,” he said. From whom (or what) Europe needs to free itself and why wasn’t clear, but Juncker’s comments underscored the dilemma Europe faces when it comes to security: The region is almost entirely dependent on the United States.

After Brexit, 80 percent of NATO spending will come from non-EU members.

While Europeans have made much of recent initiatives such as a defense pact known as the Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO), they remain modest in scope. When it comes to increasing spending on defense, progress has been glacial. In Germany, where spending more on arms is particularly sensitive due to the country’s history, the government plans an annual rise of only €250 million in the coming years. That’s a pittance compared to what would be necessary to revive Germany’s battered armed forces, which are struggling to keep basic equipment, including helicopters and tanks, in operation.

The German posture, despite persistent pressure from the U.S. and some European capitals, is unlikely to substantially change. “For Berlin to really spend more, there would need to be some kind of event,” a German government adviser said, referring to some form of military attack.......

Heathrow Harry 19th Feb 2018 08:17

Interesting articles

But "Committing to" is a long way from a legal obligation

It's like T Bliars famous "aspirations".............

glad rag 19th Feb 2018 17:38

After Brexit, 80 percent of NATO spending will come from non-EU members.

....like a breath of spring air....

glad rag 19th Feb 2018 17:40


Originally Posted by BEagle (Post 10055827)
You don't seem to know that Germany has been involved in anti-IS operations in Syria and Iraq, as well as supporting operations in Mali, for quite a few years now.

Luftwaffe A310MRTT AAR support has been widely praised not just by German fighter bomber crews but also by other nations involved in the Sandpit Wars.

They had to leave Incirlik due to EU politics and are now elsewhere in the Middle East. I'm told that they weren't even allowed off base at Incz, which must have rather hit Basil, Pop's Leather and Mr.Rolex in the pocket - although the wives would have been spared bits of sundry brass tat and grubby carpets!

I would suggest you 're read the article...

West Coast 19th Feb 2018 17:53

It’s time to reconsider the future of NATO. Living under the nuclear umbrella of other member states have softened the Germans.

Heathrow Harry 19th Feb 2018 18:34

Thank God................

NutLoose 19th Feb 2018 18:48


Specifically, the Bundeswehr's ninth tank brigade in Münster only has nine operational Leopard 2 tanks
Aptly named brigade then.

t43562 20th Feb 2018 14:48

Yes, I don't think we want the 'hard' Germans again please.

West Coast 20th Feb 2018 17:52

Yah, Vlad doesn’t want that either.

Rhino power 20th Feb 2018 23:13

Tornado fleet temporarily grounded...
 
:ooh:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/germ...iodiesel-fuel/

-RP

ORAC 15th Apr 2018 15:21

Germany fears steeper Tornado costs after the UK ditches its planes

COLOGNE, Germany – The planned phasing out of the United Kingdom’s last Tornado aircraft has German officials scrambling to deal with the increasing costs of a shrinking fleet.

Continuing aircraft reductions in the tri-national program, which also includes Italy, have led to “significant technical, logistical and financial risk” in maintaining the 1980s-era fighter-bombers, officials have told lawmakers in a confidential report seen by Defense News. While the prospect of Britain’s exit from the aircraft program has been known since November 2016, there is “no sufficient and comprehensive planning in place” for sustaining the remaining German planes, the report warns.......

The defense ministry’s March 2018 report leaves open the question of how, and if, the UK would retain some kind of role in the program. Last November, the document states, there was talk about introducing a new, fixed scheme for financial contributions, abandoning the practice of going by the number of airframes used in each nation. German defense officials wrote that they also are unsure what financial contributions can be expected of the Italians before Rome retires its Tornado contingent in 2027.....

“The UK has a large number of airframes left in storage in a variety of conditions and including various degrees of upgrades between GR.1 and the latest GR.4 ‘diamond standard’ as flown over Iraq and Syria,” said Justin Bronk, a research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute. “These will be a very valuable source of spare parts and consumables for the Luftwaffe Tornado force once the Royal Air Force has fully retired the type,” he added. “Since the Tornado manufacturing lines have long since closed, spare parts are expensive and often time consuming to procure, so Germany will no doubt appreciate access to the RAF’s stock of frontline and reserve airframes to cannibalise.”.....

air pig 16th Apr 2018 00:26


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10119202)
Germany fears steeper Tornado costs after the UK ditches its planes

COLOGNE, Germany – The planned phasing out of the United Kingdom’s last Tornado aircraft has German officials scrambling to deal with the increasing costs of a shrinking fleet.

Continuing aircraft reductions in the tri-national program, which also includes Italy, have led to “significant technical, logistical and financial risk” in maintaining the 1980s-era fighter-bombers, officials have told lawmakers in a confidential report seen by Defense News. While the prospect of Britain’s exit from the aircraft program has been known since November 2016, there is “no sufficient and comprehensive planning in place” for sustaining the remaining German planes, the report warns.......

The defense ministry’s March 2018 report leaves open the question of how, and if, the UK would retain some kind of role in the program. Last November, the document states, there was talk about introducing a new, fixed scheme for financial contributions, abandoning the practice of going by the number of airframes used in each nation. German defense officials wrote that they also are unsure what financial contributions can be expected of the Italians before Rome retires its Tornado contingent in 2027.....

“The UK has a large number of airframes left in storage in a variety of conditions and including various degrees of upgrades between GR.1 and the latest GR.4 ‘diamond standard’ as flown over Iraq and Syria,” said Justin Bronk, a research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute. “These will be a very valuable source of spare parts and consumables for the Luftwaffe Tornado force once the Royal Air Force has fully retired the type,” he added. “Since the Tornado manufacturing lines have long since closed, spare parts are expensive and often time consuming to procure, so Germany will no doubt appreciate access to the RAF’s stock of frontline and reserve airframes to cannibalise.”.....

Not if the RAF gets a far better deal from the Saudi's

glad rag 17th Apr 2018 11:11


Originally Posted by air pig (Post 10119645)
Not if the RAF gets a far better deal from the Saudi's

That's what keeps pprune going, a sense of humour.

ORAC 28th Jan 2020 07:28

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/g...anks-wsxmfqzzl

German soldiers told to pretend that cars are tanks

The German army is so short of tanks it is using cars in exercises and telling troops to pretend they are jumping out of a tank.

The defence ministry confirmed that troops were using “other vehicles to practise mounting and dismounting” to cope with a shortage of working Puma infantry fighting vehicles. Bild reported that the use of cars was part of what the military called alternative solutions to the lack of working Pumas for training.

The case echoes an incident in which German troops on a Nato exercise in Norway in 2014 had to use a broomstick painted black to simulate a missing gun on a GTK Boxer armoured fighting vehicle.

The ministry said that it was “not satisfied” with the operational readiness of the Puma, a prestige project for the defence industry. Bild said that only about 20 per cent of the Pumas allocated to five of the army’s mechanised infantry battalions were in working order. Internal papers blamed the shortage on a lack of spare parts and slow maintenance. It could worsen in 2023 and 2024 when about 100 Pumas will be in workshops for long-planned refits.

The Bundeswehr has ordered 350 Pumas, described in Germany as the world’s most advanced infantry fighting vehicle, to replace its ageing Marder tanks.

Germany has long been criticised by its Nato allies for
not spending enough on defence. Successive governments slashed defence spending after the Cold War and troops have been complaining about shortages for years.

Lonewolf_50 28th Jan 2020 14:15

Task Force Schmidt in the making.

Not_a_boffin 29th Jan 2020 09:32

So if I've got this right, we're leaving the EU, but some would have us recreate BAOR (only probably in Poland), because the richest economy in Europe can't be @rsed to fund its own army.

Right.......

Lonewolf_50 29th Jan 2020 14:28


Originally Posted by t43562 (Post 10059279)
Yes, I don't think we want the 'hard' Germans again please.

I'd rather they stiffened up a bit, so "harder than lately" would not be a bad idea without going for full tungsten carbide.


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