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-   -   Scottish Income Tax (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/603046-scottish-income-tax.html)

Avionker 13th Dec 2017 20:43


Originally Posted by newt (Post 9989290)
I made the point about the Barnett formula to demonstrate how out of touch the SNP are with the Union! You may not have noticed that when Mrs May called her snap election, the only good thing to come from it was the large shift away from the SNP! Large areas voted Tory, especially along the borders where I live! They recognise the problems of the border should the SNP get their way!

Oh and I do have a house in Norfolk as well!

If the Northern Ireland/ Republic of Ireland border is not an insurmountable barrier to Brexit then the Scotland/England border should be a breeze to sort out in comparison don’t you think?

newt 13th Dec 2017 20:52

I do not! Furthermore, we have not yet seen the exact solution to the Irish border! The driving force behind it is rather different than the Scottish Border!

Timelord 13th Dec 2017 21:02

Whether the SNP government is good for the people of Scotland is not the point. The point is that since forever UK service people, wherever they are posted in the world, pay the tax rate set by the U.K. Government which they get to vote for . Not the rate set by the government of the country in which they find themselves which they do not get to vote for. Unless their tour in Scotland happens to coincide with a Holyrood election that is the situation UK service people will find themselves in.

Avionker 13th Dec 2017 21:16

Time lord

I agree whole heartedly. The fact that this was not addressed prior to Tax Varying powers been devolved is the root of the problem.

As much as people may want to blame them, I don’t think the SNP, or indeed any Scottish party can be blamed for that. A Westminster screw up, surely?

longer ron 13th Dec 2017 21:19


Originally Posted by Avionker (Post 9989324)

As much as people may want to blame them, I don’t think the SNP, or indeed any Scottish party can be blamed for that. A Westminster screw up, surely?

100% SNP screw up for sure - they do not have a clue what they are doing - and yes I do live in scotland so I am qualified to have an opinion ;).

Timelord 13th Dec 2017 21:54

I think it's simple. Both the Westminster and Holyrood administration forgot about members of the armed forces. Not for the first time either.

Timelord 14th Dec 2017 15:07

So now we have it. By my fag packet calculations I reckon that the Station Commander Lossiemouth will be taxed £1000 more than the Station Commander Conningsby. Anyone earning more than £33000 will be worse off.
Good luck to manning getting people to go to Lossie!

And to the NHS Scotland trying to recruit consultants!

air pig 14th Dec 2017 15:50


Originally Posted by Timelord (Post 9990090)
So now we have it. By my fag packet calculations I reckon that the Station Commander Lossiemouth will be taxed £1000 more than the Station Commander Conningsby. Anyone earning more than £33000 will be worse off.
Good luck to manning getting people to go to Lossie!

And to the NHS Scotland trying to recruit consultants!

And nurses on band 5 who work nights bank holidays and weekends as well, vote winner I think not.

The Old Fat One 14th Dec 2017 17:32

Shout out to timelord for calling it as it is.

The consequences for the military (and probably some others as well) are nothing to do with party politics...just cock up and complacency - as usual!! Seen it all before.

And people of the UK, wherever they rest their head, will (and should!) take account of the tax divergence and, if it bothers them, include in their life planning decisions.

For my part, I could not give a **** about 1% here or there...but then I don't earn £100K a year :( :( :(

haltonapp 14th Dec 2017 17:51

So what we have now, a posting to Lossiemouth, not only puts you a long way from your family and friends, unless you are jockanese, puts you in a higher tax bracket! Also you want F35 personnel to spend time afloat and be based there, a perfect storm!

Billy the Fish 14th Dec 2017 18:16


Originally Posted by melmothtw (Post 9988754)
Maybe it's not. Has anyone actually checked?

There is DiN and personnel based in Scotland are considered Scottish Tax payers which is going to prove a nightmare for Manning who struggle to get people to serve up there now let alone after their tax bill goes up an extra £700 for a Sqn Ldr. LoA for Scotland might be the answer!

Billy the Fish 14th Dec 2017 18:21


Originally Posted by haltonapp (Post 9990256)
So what we have now, a posting to Lossiemouth, not only puts you a long way from your family and friends, unless you are jockanese, puts you in a higher tax bracket! Also you want F35 personnel to spend time afloat and be based there, a perfect storm!

Spot on, who would want to be in manning trying to sell this to the future Lightning Force!

Timelord 14th Dec 2017 18:51

I repeat my invitation to anyone who feels sufficiently strongly about this to e mail [email protected]

cats_five 14th Dec 2017 19:09


Originally Posted by haltonapp (Post 9990256)
So what we have now, a posting to Lossiemouth, not only puts you a long way from your family and friends, unless you are jockanese, puts you in a higher tax bracket! Also you want F35 personnel to spend time afloat and be based there, a perfect storm!

Apparently "no one earning less than £33,000 in Scotland will pay more tax they do now. " Not sure how many members of the forces that applies to.

It's not simply a forces issue either, there are plenty of firms with employees both sides of the border.

langleybaston 14th Dec 2017 21:20

The above has, fortunately, "nothing to do with me!"

Nevertheless:

If I have, or had, any finger on the pulse of English [sic] sentiment it is that some inducement to live and work in Scotland is highly desirable.

When I was offered a P Met O slot on promotion, it was Leuchars or Bawtry. This was literally a no brainer. The decision was based on ignorance, not experience, but took into account language difficulties, short winter days, cold winter nights and nasty biting cleggs or whatever. And the bagpipes.

There are probably many still serving who have similar baggage, exacerbated by the outpourings of dislike by the SNP leader.

To add penalties to such Scottish postings seems counter-productive..

Dan Gerous 14th Dec 2017 21:40


Originally Posted by high spirits (Post 9990475)
The SNP also pledged a pay rise for public sector workers. Does that include Armed Forces too or are we all suddenly ‘English’ again?



Defence isn't a devolved power.:p

PPRuNeUser0211 14th Dec 2017 21:53

No offence to anyone this might have an impact on, but I'd really like to point out that if you're chimfing about losing £700 quid a year on a posting to Lossie, god help you if you ever get posted to Odiham. Frankly, cost of living change will far, far outweigh the tax!

(I do also appreciate that no one wants a posting to Odiham, but that's bugger all to do with the money!)

Pontius Navigator 15th Dec 2017 07:11

Pda, whilst the CoL down south may be higher there are many other advantages. Shorter distances, more shops, amenities, activities, more daylight in winter, warmer and so on. It is no question why people prefer the south coast to the empty north coast.

Back in the 70s there were several senior officers that refused Lossiemouth and promotion to gp capt. ISK was different as St Mawgan was the only alternative.

IIRC there was a similar tax issue back in the 70s. I don't remember if it came to fruition, but it depended if you were in quarters or private, and spouses working or some such.

Pontius Navigator 15th Dec 2017 07:21

It was mentioned earlier that HM Forces are taxed at UK rates world wide and MOD deducts tax due under PAYE for HMRC. Who will handle the deductions for WJK?

Who will be liable for the additional tax? In other words, what will constitute residence for tax purposes? Will someone on a course for 6 months be taxed or what? If you are resident but deployed, will you be taxed?

I know the RAF used to be creative with qualifying periods where it vCard suited them. A course duration might be set to avoid MQ qualification.

PPRuNeUser0211 15th Dec 2017 07:26

Pontius

I don't disagree about the quality of life argument at all, but purely financially I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that on 'average' HM forces members are financially better off in the south of England (particularly those paying for child care for example). If you include anybody that doesn't live in service provided accommodation then that gap widens eye wateringly.

Personally I'd say Lincolnshire is the ideal compromise on paper... But then you go there....

Pontius Navigator 15th Dec 2017 07:50

Pda, agree 're pure finance. Also Lincolnshire though we are moving but could not afford to move out of Lincolnshire. In many respects Lincolnshire is similar to the Moray area as I remember it. Long distances to anywhere, limited range of shops and so on though the internet levels that playing field.

Roland Pulfrew 15th Dec 2017 08:32


though the internet levels that playing field.
Not strictly true. The last operational RAF flying base in Scotland is in an IV postcode - many internet companies view IV postcodes as "remote" and thus add delivery charges, even though a significant chunk (the majority) of the postcode is Mainland UK. Petrol prices in the area are, or were, significantly higher than the south of Scotland/England. Food prices were also often higher, even if locally grown. Childcare charges were also similar unless you are using a Norland Nannie or Montessori Nursery School down south. Cost of living between Odiham and Lossie will be different in many ways, but probably not as different as some might think.

PPRuNeUser0211 15th Dec 2017 14:37

Roland - fair point! Though I'd suggest as soon as you pay for your own accommodation one's eyes don't water quite as much up north! Lord knows what they're going to do with future accommodation model to sort that!

Party Animal 22nd Dec 2017 09:34

This issue was major news on BBC Breakfast tv this morning for viewers in Scotland. Sounds like someone has raised the argument upwards but the bottom line soundbite was that 'MOD is looking into a special allowance for servicemen/women based in Scotland who are being penalised by the new Scottish Tax rules..'

So no clear direction yet but at least our Whitehall warriors are aware there is a problem....

Easy Street 22nd Dec 2017 11:39

1) Service personnel based outside Scotland during the last Holyrood election and subsequently assigned to Lossiemouth took no part in the democratic process which resulted in the recent tax increase. The 'democratic choice' argument advanced by an earlier poster is entirely bogus.

2) The fact that the proceeds of the tax rise are being used, in part, to fund a public sector pay rise makes the issue doubly toxic given that service personnel will not be included, Armed Forces pay being a matter for Westminster.

Now that the matter has been brought to light I can't see it passing the political 'smell test' and some kind of fudged solution seems inevitable. One would hope that any funds used to compensate personnel stationed in Scotland will come from Holyrood's newly-enlarged coffers and not the MoD's already-stretched ones.

Heathrow Harry 22nd Dec 2017 13:12

How do the 'Mericans handle it? If you are posted to a different State you have different Sales Tax and Income tax in many states..................

Onceapilot 22nd Dec 2017 13:33


Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry (Post 9998287)
How do the 'Mericans handle it? If you are posted to a different State you have different Sales Tax and Income tax in many states..................

HH
Interesting but, UK Gov played a blinder when we raised the issue of US vs UK taxation last time with deployed taxation....they gave the OP allowance of about the lowest rankers tax...for everyone! :mad: Wonder if they will apply that to this situation. I think they might! :*

OAP

vascodegama 22nd Dec 2017 14:54

HH

I seem to remember that an exchange Officer said that they have the choice of which state to file taxes in.

PPRuNeUser0211 22nd Dec 2017 16:36

HH - I believe you're right. They can nominate a 'primary residence' a bit like us, but that can be hypothetical.

Out of interest, anyone know what happens if you're married/unaccompanied and live in the mess in Scotland 5 days a week, commuting south of the border on weekends?

Chinny Crewman 22nd Dec 2017 20:28


Originally Posted by pba_target (Post 9998482)
HH - I believe you're right. They can nominate a 'primary residence' a bit like us, but that can be hypothetical.

Out of interest, anyone know what happens if you're married/unaccompanied and live in the mess in Scotland 5 days a week, commuting south of the border on weekends?

PBA the DIN refers to main residence. In your example main residence would be S of the border so no additional tax due. IIRC the examples in the DIN are v similar to your scenario.

PPRuNeUser0211 22nd Dec 2017 22:00

Thanks for that. Yet another reason to own a small flat somewhere far away!

Melchett01 22nd Dec 2017 22:26


Originally Posted by Easy Street (Post 9998197)
1) Service personnel based outside Scotland during the last Holyrood election and subsequently assigned to Lossiemouth took no part in the democratic process which resulted in the recent tax increase. The 'democratic choice' argument advanced by an earlier poster is entirely bogus.

2) The fact that the proceeds of the tax rise are being used, in part, to fund a public sector pay rise makes the issue doubly toxic given that service personnel will not be included, Armed Forces pay being a matter for Westminster.

Now that the matter has been brought to light I can't see it passing the political 'smell test' and some kind of fudged solution seems inevitable. One would hope that any funds used to compensate personnel stationed in Scotland will come from Holyrood's newly-enlarged coffers and not the MoD's already-stretched ones.

It will be interesting to see how they do play it as there are definitely some potential poo traps. Give an allowance for extra costs in Scotland and no doubt others will try to argue for allowances elsewhere e.g. reintroduction of London allowances that were largely scrapped to fund austerity. Worst case, recognising regional differences could well be seized on by those who oppose nationwide public sector pay agreements. For once I actually have a degree of sympathy for the Pay Colonels trying to unravel this one without triggering second & third order consequences.

Party Animal 23rd Dec 2017 09:37

I would have thought it an easy one to fix; all UK MOD employees pay a standard rate of tax as set by HMG, wherever they are posted around the world. Of course the HMG rate would be based on English taxation levels. Ergo, everyone gets paid the same income per rank/level/grade and everyone pays the same tax!


Isn't this a similar case with CILOCT?

Heathrow Harry 23rd Dec 2017 10:38

"MOD employees" could mean anyone who is a Civil Servant and may be hired and be in the same location for years eg at Bristol or C London or Coulport

Better to restrict it to serving personnel in the Armed Forces who can be posted without the option of refusing - the numbers would be much smaller and so the "loss" to the Scots that much less

Melchett01 23rd Dec 2017 11:12


Originally Posted by Party Animal (Post 9999212)
I would have thought it an easy one to fix; all UK MOD employees pay a standard rate of tax as set by HMG, wherever they are posted around the world. Of course the HMG rate would be based on English taxation levels. Ergo, everyone gets paid the same income per rank/level/grade and everyone pays the same tax!


Isn't this a similar case with CILOCT?

Party Animal,

I believe that’s the argument they use to justify why UK forces don’t get tax free pay in operational areas when allies such as US personnel do. Would seem to be a sensible thing to say you’re employed by the MOD based out of London and therefore pay London tax rates. I’m sure wee Jimmy Krankie would kick off though claiming that yet again Whitehall was undermining the Scottish governement’s right to set taxes and generate funding thereby turning it into yet another independence whinge.

Blacksheep 23rd Dec 2017 11:44

I don’t know about today’s arrangements, but when I served I was paid from the RAF budget (i.e. Whitehall) and my pay was credited to my bank - which remained Barclays in Witney wherever in UK I happened to serve. Tax, GP & NIS all deducted at source. Where would Scotland come into the equation? It appears that Scottish taxation is being improperly applied. (Thinks: I didn’t even pay council tax when living in or living in AMQ.)

Pontius Navigator 23rd Dec 2017 12:33

As I said earlier, where will the new tax rates be applied? MOD?

What criteria will be used to charge jock tax? Will the rate be refunded for detachments out of Scotland, is so what period would count. Similarly for detachments in? Nightmare.

alfred_the_great 23rd Dec 2017 12:37


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 9999353)
As I said earlier, where will the new tax rates be applied? MOD?

What criteria will be used to charge jock tax? Will the rate be refunded for detachments out of Scotland, is so what period would count. Similarly for detachments in? Nightmare.

If you were to read the DIN, that would all become clear.

olddog 23rd Dec 2017 13:03

And Pensions too!
 
While we're at it what about veterans (Pensioners)? I served in the UK armed forces whilst earning my RAF pensions. My pensions are paid into an English Bank by an English Agency and are taxed at source - but using a Scottish Tax Code! Granted, I choose to live in Scotland but that doesn't make me Scottish!

Pontius Navigator 23rd Dec 2017 14:06

Atg, please enlighten us


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