Quite agree - dunno why the chap was so intent on chalking fuel/time left.
Obviously that Marque of Spitfire didn't have a Merlin but a witch's broom, as evidenced in the fire at the end.
That allowed space to be used for millions of extra rounds of .303 and a performance equivalent to a Merlin engined MkI.

Sad that this occurred so soon after the BBMF 60th anniversary. I don't recall any special mention of that back in July.
What's the situation with privately owned merlin engined aircraft, Spits, Hurris and Mustangs? If BBMF ground all theirs, surely so should they all?

According to the Telegraph, the problem is with the pin that holds the engine in!


Also states that the Hurricane with the problem had only just flown in a Royal Flypast insinuating the Queen was lucky not to have had a Merlin fall on her head.


Don't you just love the press.

Why can't they just say what the problem is instead of fueling all this speculation?

I recently visited BBMF. We were told that after XV230, things had become a lot more stringent safety wise. No bad thing I guess.

Perhaps no bad thing to a point, but there has certainly been an 'over reaction' by many involved in aviation. Thankfully BBMF has probably been one of the very few outfits where common sense has invariably prevailed in allowing activity to be completed (perfectly safely) rather than the 'stop everything until everything is perfect' attitude.

Imagine the scenario: Wind steady on the limit but gusting somewhat above - albeit straight down the strip. V V V important flypast to do. Two options: keep hangar locked and go home; ask Stn Cdr to ask AOC if ac can be towed to threshold, flown safely, flypast completed, landed safely by more than capable crew.

If you over-prioritise safety you can invariably find an excuse not to do fly.

Later in the same month, needing to do some CT in a modern twin-jet to be told - 'only one landing available'. We sheepishly asked why to be told the main door counterbalance spring needed changing (it's life was tied to the number of landings). 'Can we do just one cycle on the door but lots of landings' we asked - 'Nope'. Of course it was raining so we opened and shut the door 4 times during the see-off. Absurd, but the guys just had to do what the book said!!!!

Oh, the flypast was admired my the many thousands who saw it - probably all but a tiny handful unaware of the very slight increase in risk to achieve the TOT!

The Telegraph also said that the BBMF would continue to fly the Griffon-engined Chipmunk!

Bet that has an interesting C of G!

Make a great glider tug! They could call it a Chipfire or a Spitmunk.

Torque rolls would be exciting......

If you could actually taxi it first! :eek:

Whats even more worrying is that there are no doubt lots of others who know a bit about their subject (be it ships, medicine, plants, finance, joinery etc etc) who are shaking their heads in disbelief over all the other articles in the newspaper!

Thats exactly what I always think. Bit like intelligence, news has to be filtered and confirmed from more than one source these days...

Forgive my ignorance but why is the Dak grounded? A separate issue to this one, I assume, as I don't think they ever made radial Merlin engines...?

I believe its currently not equipped with its full compliment of engines.....;)

Speaking as a not-so-humble Continuing Airworthiness Management Engineer: There are no Emergency Airworthiness Directives from the CAA for either the Spitfire or Hurricane aircraft, nor the Merlin engine - so civilian Spitfires and Hurricanes are not grounded. Why all the secrecy? If the Royal Air Force are aware of an airworthiness problem that justifies grounding their fleet, their duty on safety grounds is to share that information with all operators of the same type. Is it a due to (heaven forbid) a "Maintenance Error" within the BBMF? Have they for example, overrun a scheduled or mandatory inspection?

Thunderbird7. Unfortunately they've had problems with another engine. I visited BBMF last Thursday and the Dak had its starboard engine removed and needed a replacement. Have seen elsewhere that it will be grounded for the rest of year.

That is something of an understatement:eek:

Unless the issue relates to procedures, processes or documentation relating to (say) a subcontracted P.145 organisation which is unique to that organisation or the contractual relationship they have with the BBMF.

Personally I dismiss the "metal particles in the oil" story that's floating (sic) around - the BBMF's merlins cover a range of marques and they're all at different life-states, so I can't see that as a reason for a generic grounding.

PDR

When it comes to air safety there are no "Unless" issues apart from, in this case, something within the military's own organisation - which is the point I was making.

As no airworthiness issues are identified in the civil environment, the problem seems to lie within the BBMF alone. If it were otherwise it would (or should be) a matter that needs to be shared with all operators of either Spitfire and Hurricane aircraft or Merlin engines, as well as other non-EASA "Permit to Fly" types that have Merlin engines installed. As the grounding affects different aircraft types and different marks of the Merlin engine, I suspect oil or fuel system contamination or something similar as a most likely scenario.

NIGE321. I was unfortunate enough to hear the Jeremy Vine piece.Air show organiser on it, who was fine. Woman 'Historian' who was completely off the wall, hadn't got a CLUE about aircraft, engines, flying. or the world in general, .
Her main concern was what would happen if the Lancaster stalled on take-off at an airshow and crashed into the crowd!!. All these old aircraft should be in museums, not in the air putting the public in danger all the time she crowed. Even my wife [non aviation person] was in hysterics at her rantings. DIRE!!!!

Stitching together the few facts on here and stirring in a little more speculation like everyone else is...
This thread sort of suggests that the RAF (BBMF) may have selected a supplier to manufacture new shafts/gears and may have installed the same standard in all their Merlins. If this was the case, civil owned Merlins may not have used the same supplier and, therefore, not be affected.

Dang.....better ground every single warbird with a geared distributor drive worldwide.

They're all gonna fall out of the sky at the same moment!!!!!!!

Do people really say "Dang"? Thought t was just in the movies.

No...`Gosh,dash it all,chaps`!...FFS...

There are a number of civilian overhaul companies out there, BBMF use one of them, while civilian warbirds operators use others. I note RRs Mk19 hasn't been out for a while, does anyone know if this is engine related (yes, I realise it's Griffon not Merlin).

Spitfire
 

The 19 has been putting on a great performance here in Eastbourne.

I know there us a tendency in the UK to pour scorn on experts and common sense- lets deafen all the men working on Big Ben , they are only workmen we still want to here that chimes that Napolean and Hitler couldnt stop etc etc. Surely we can keep the BBMF going , Dunkirk spirit etc etc

As has been said these aircraft are very very old and were designed with a life expectancy in months not decades and the lovely exploded view of a Merlin (no pun) earkeir on shows just why recips were ditched the moment they solved the metallurgy problems of jets - too many moving bits in conflict with each other.

Now i absolutely adore the sound of a Merlin and no book aviation or otherwise had a better title than Spit test pilot, Alex Henshaw's, wonderful 'Sigh for a Merlin'. But surely if there is a problem ground the aircraft for a few months and fix it rather than risk a catastrophic display accident which post Shoreham could well be the death knell for UK Airshows.

And having said that i ahve had the delight this weekend of seeing and hearing two Merlins , one I think on a Hurricane ( but I might have been wrong with that one) and then just a few hours ago a P 51 snarling across the sky over Camberley ( the Hurricane , cos it was surely not a Spit ) took the same route . Was I right about the identification , as they dodged from view through the tree canopy heading North to South. I do love the sound of big piston props on a fast moving fighter

Pax,

That would be all well and good if the BBMF aircraft were being 'worked hard and put away wet', and if they were subject to the rigours of a wartime environment, and wartime servicing, out in the open.

Except that the Spitfire and Hurricane were never designed to 'last months' in the way that (say) the Bf 109 was, and were designed to be as rugged and as robust as it was possible to make them.

And then there's the fact that these aircraft have been stripped down and rebuilt using an astonishing array of new parts - in many cases today's flying Spits are new aircraft built around a genuine data plate, and with original parts used simply as patterns.

They simply aren't the creaking geriatrics that you imply (unlike some of the posters on here).

Moreover these aircraft are minutely inspected - frequently, and are subject to a 'no expense spared' maintenance and overhaul regime that means that every part that can wear out will have been replaced - probably several times, and that parts that are subject to fatigue will be even more carefully looked after.

Yea, I noticed that too. There are gliders that don't glide as good as that particular Spitfire!:ok:


500 Fan.

JAckoNicko

Thats a fair point and i wasnt at all meaning to imply that the Hurricane and Spitfire were throw away designs. As you say they are still going strong in many respects but there was as they say a war on and corners sometimes had to be cut and perhaps the materials spec was a bit looser than say on a modern airliner. Oddly enough i though one of the reasons we ended up on the winning side was because unlike the Germans who engineered everything (at least in the earlier years) we , perhaps at items through necessity, did recognise that life cycles in war are short and that a better version is always just around the corner. Of course by 1944 Germany was on an synthetic/ersatz/rationed economy for almost everything and they couldnt make some of the futuristic designs they came up with and if they could it was in tiny inefectual quantities

However the point I was trying to make is that today they fly for fun and to remind us of times no one (well almost know one) wants to repeat ie a beautiful continent torn apart in war. They are not being sent up to defend London or rain fire on Hamburg they are just decorating the sky looking and sounding wonderful. However if there was to be a fatal accident and the cause was a known engine problem then the BBMF would be grounded and for good too and that would be an awful shame , in fact a tragedy because as any real memory of the horrors of WW2 are almost completely gone , younger generations need something to get them interested in what happened and why and these wonderful preserved aircraft are probably the most inspiring tools for that job.

Is it a verified fact that the BBMF's current problems are with the magneto drive, or does all this discussion stem from an 'I once read a book by Alex Henshaw' statement?

So, after 4 pages about magneto drives and glide ratios of Spitfires, it transpires that the issue is a chipped tooth on a pinnon gear in the reduction gearing. Nothing to do with magneto drives.

Why has that led to a fleet grounding - did the BBMF have a whole batch of these remanufactured and fitted in all their Merlins?

PDR

I heard from a Warbird pilot here at work that they found metal fragments (he didn't know their origin) but the SOAP (Spectrographic Oil Analysis Programme) tests didn't show up anything out of the ordinary. Therefore, a 'better safe than sorry' inspection of all the other engines was called for to better understand why the SOAP tests didn't give a warning.

Actung Spitfire Buzzed by PR19 at 1930 local, couple pf passes then final pass over the house rocking his wings as he climber away.

No, the crank gear on one engine was found cracked. All other gearboxes are to be checked. I believe all gears are original manufacture, but have proven to be very reliable in service.

Griffon engine , probably an ex Shack. 57'?

pax britanica:

I expect that you mean Napoleon, the great French warrior who died 37 years before they built "Big Ben" and therefore would not have been in a position to silence it.

PN, that was a flypast for the 92 Sqn Centenary Dinner being held at the Golf Hotel, Woodhall Spa that evening.

Two BBMF aircraft are being advertised for the static park at this weekends Scampton airshow.:ok:

Scampton have emailed that subject to a air test tomorrow, the BBMF Lancaster and a Hurricane, plus a Griffon-Spitfire will display at Scampton this weekend