The trouble is that integration of a new weapon on Typhoon means getting a slot on the ‘to-do’ list at the multinational programme level, which automatically pushes things into the ‘several years’ timeframe. I wouldn’t be surprised if this issue was among the main reasons for the somewhat surprising announcement that the UK was embarking on a 6th-gen project on its own. |
Originally Posted by tartare
(Post 10445653)
But 7 years?
If Germany had been onboard from the beginning the UK Typhoon programme would have been years ahead of where it is now. |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 10444806)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN1RM219 Exclusive: Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030 BERLIN (Reuters) - The German Defence Ministry estimates it will cost nearly 9 billion euros to keep its aging fleet of 93 Tornado fighter jets flying until 2030, according to a classified document provided to German lawmakers this week. The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters. Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing Co’s F/A-18E/F fighter jet to replace its Tornado fleet in coming years, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter from a tender worth billions of euros. But neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter, built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA, are currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. That means Germany will be dependent on its Tornado fleet until it gets new certified planes - a process that could take years. The estimate came in response to a query by lawmakers from the opposition Free Democrats, who have criticized the ministry for dropping the F-35 - the only aircraft already certified. The ministry did not specify the cost of operating the Tornado fleet until 2035, the current target, despite a specific request to do so from the lawmakers, and said it could adjust the retirement schedule. Parliamentary sources said the estimate was even higher than expected at around 100 million euros per plane, and it would be cheaper to purchase new aircraft. However Germany’s sluggish defense procurement process, and the complicated process of certifying new aircraft to carry nuclear weapons, meant any new warplanes were unlikely to enter service until 2025 or even later. Of Germany’s 93 Tornado jets, 85 are operated by the Luftwaffe, or air force, but not all are equipped to carry nuclear weapons. The remaining planes are used for training. The current Tornado fleet has a combat readiness rate of under 40 percent, according to sources familiar with new ministry data. Germany in past years had published such data, but this year made the readiness of its weapons a classified matter for security reasons. The RAF has just retired its fleet of Tornado and I have been told that the vast majority of the airframes and systems have been reduced to produce. I also understand that the majority of the RTP items have been supplied to the Saudis. Apparently the German MoD were not prepared to pay as much as the Saudis for these parts. |
Originally Posted by TBM-Legend
(Post 10445592)
Gee the first delivery aircraft, the B-29, was certified and proven in weeks!
Yes seven years does seem a long time. But certifying anything where Nuclear Safety is involved can become a massive exercise. |
Originally Posted by Buster15
(Post 10446029)
Let's at least try to compare apples with applesshall we.
Yes seven years does seem a long time. But certifying anything where Nuclear Safety is involved can become a massive exercise. |
The Eurofighter program has been going on for 35 yrs, flying for 25. It's a good interceptor / air defense platform.
I don't see it as an interdiction solution for the next 35 years. Things moved on, you don't operate in isolation. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ab5b9d546a.png https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/0...hter-fc31.html |
Originally Posted by keesje
(Post 10460430)
The Eurofighter program has been going on for 35 yrs, flying for 25. It's a good interceptor / air defense platform.
I don't see it as an interdiction solution for the next 35 years. Things moved on, you don't operate in isolation. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ab5b9d546a.png https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/0...hter-fc31.html |
Originally Posted by keesje
(Post 10460430)
The Eurofighter program has been going on for 35 yrs, flying for 25. It's a good interceptor / air defense platform.
I don't see it as an interdiction solution for the next 35 years. Things moved on, you don't operate in isolation. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ab5b9d546a.png https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/0...hter-fc31.html |
Originally Posted by Thrust Augmentation
(Post 10460714)
Really looks like a lineup of studio models for a Buck Rodgers or Battlestar G. film!
|
https://www.reuters.com/article/germ...-idUSL2N26E1ED German defense minister wants quick decision on Tornado replacement WASHINGTON, Sept 23 (Reuters) - German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer on Monday said she aimed to decide as soon as possible next year how to replace Germany’s aging fleet of Tornado fighter jets to prevent a lapse in Germany’s ability to carry out missions for NATO. Kramp-Karrenbauer, leader of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s Christian Democrats, said she discussed the issue with U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper during her first official visit to Washington since taking on her new role as defense minister. Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter - built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA - or Boeing Co’s F/A-18 fighter, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 fighter out of a tender worth billions of euros. However neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter is currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. Germany is asking Washington to spell out what it will take to get those aircraft certified. “My goal is that we make clear decisions as quickly as possible next year, so there is no time period in which there is no reasonable solution for replacing the Tornado fleet,” Kramp-Karrenbauer told reporters. She said she would work closely with Esper on the issue in coming months. But experts say it could take years to get the new planes certified to carry nuclear weapons, and the cost of maintaining the current aircraft is rising rapidly. Kramp-Karrenbauer said she also had a frank discussion with Esper about Germany’s rejection of the F-35 as a possible replacement for the Tornado jets, given concerns that it could impede work on a Franco-German next-generation combat jet. “We made clear that ... the Future Combat Air System with the French was one of the reasons that ... we had to seek other solutions,” she said, when asked if she ruled out taking another look at the F-35. Lockheed officials had hoped that Germany could reconsider its decision after the departure of former Defence Minister Ursula von der Leyen........ |
Originally Posted by Buster15
(Post 10446024)
These figures seem surprising.
The RAF has just retired its fleet of Tornado and I have been told that the vast majority of the airframes and systems have been reduced to produce. I also understand that the majority of the RTP items have been supplied to the Saudis. Apparently the German MoD were not prepared to pay as much as the Saudis for these parts. FB |
Use of French weapons would mean they would be stored under French control and released to the delivery unit after a French political decision in the same way that US weapons always have been. I’m not sure that either party is ready for that sort of arrangement. |
The use of a French bomb instead of a US B61 should be possible. |
I'd think that the prime directive for the German military would be to ensure that nuclear weapons are never used in Europe.
Getting rid of US certified nuclear carriers would be positive early result of such a directive. However, I see zero desire to substitute a French nuke for a US nuke. Rather the German government will feel very comfortable having no nuclear capable aircraft because of jurisdictional issues. |
Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 10579418)
Why should it be possible?
|
The Germans want to keep their US NATO nuke role. This is why they practically need some US aircraft capable to be certified for the B61-12. Certifying the Eurofighter would mean to technically disclose everything to the US for nuke-certification. This is what they want to avoid by buying something else. They seem to prefer two seats and two engines.
|
Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10580683)
The Germans want to keep their US NATO nuke role. This is why they practically need some US aircraft capable to be certified for the B61-12. Certifying the Eurofighter would mean to technically disclose everything to the US for nuke-certification. This is what they want to avoid by buying something else. They seem to prefer two seats and two engines.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ff010be25.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....54e5cbcfc.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e67079b2c.jpeg |
Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
(Post 10581006)
So a 2-seat Strike Typhoon is needed (which was on the table at one point before the idiot single-seat mafia got involved). Producing one would be easy, and with the proposed conformal tanks would be an excellent aircraft. It might even make sense for the Brits to look at this too - single seat is fine for small skirmishes like Libya or Syria, but for full-on high-end war fighting then using one aircraft to do one thing and its wing man to do another on the same mission is a waste if you want to achieve mass effect on a target. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ff010be25.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....54e5cbcfc.jpeg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e67079b2c.jpeg |
Well in my distant past I do remember loading American Special weapon training rounds onto Nimrod so there is a precedent for Bae to work with the USA in that area -weapons were controlled (at least at one base ) by a USN facility - and at the same time the Bucc was still capable of carrying WE177 as Tornado was being brought worked up into that role --with the Jaguar also being capable of carrying WE177 as it often did in RAFG when on QRA....prior to Tonka taking over that role...... |
IIRC the “special certification” for the Jaguar was a US Marine sitting on a ladder with his gun pointed at the pilot’s head and instructions to shoot if he took his hands off the cockpit sides without permission......
|
Originally Posted by West Coast
(Post 10579418)
Why should it be possible? FB |
Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 10581373)
IIRC the “special certification” for the Jaguar was a US Marine sitting on a ladder with his gun pointed at the pilot’s head and instructions to shoot if he took his hands off the cockpit sides without permission......
|
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...r-eurofighter/
Boeing’s F-18 jet may have a leg up in Germany over EurofighterCOLOGNE, Germany — The race between Boeing’s F-18 jet and the Airbus Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft to replace Germany’s Tornado fighter-bombers has tilted toward the American plane, according to a German media report. |
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....ffce50f83c.jpg
So is there any indication of single or dual crew?? |
They seem to want dual crew in any case. |
Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10587115)
They seem to want dual crew in any case. |
Super Hornet / Growler
4 decades ago if the YF-17 Cobra went into production, then McD were looking at potential foreign customers...so I came across this artists impressions of potential customers..
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....565fa009c0.jpg Notice second from bottom :) Also last year after ILA Berlin 2018, when I saw E/A-18G Growler on static, I heard a rumor, that it may have stuck around tad longer in Germany...demo to Luftwaffe as ECR replacement. So now the Tiffy may have competition on its hands, partially because of NATO Bucket of Sunshine commitment which the Tonka can port, but the Tiffy cannot. Thus with the F-35 canned...looks like it could be the Super Hornet. Cheers https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...5bGHs.facebook |
https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...-tornado-jets/
Germany reportedly moving toward a split buy of Super Hornets, Growlers and Eurofighter Typhoons to replace Tornado jets WASHINGTON — The German air force will reportedly buy up to 90 Eurofighters, 30 F/A-18E/F Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers to replace the remainder of its Panavia Tornado fighter jet fleet, but the split procurement doesn’t offer an easy answer for Germany’s requirement to field a nuclear-capable jet, a U.K. defense think tank said. Germany plans to use the Super Hornet, made by U.S. aerospace company Boeing, to fill a NATO requirement to field fighter aircraft capable of dropping the B61 nuclear gravity bomb, according to German business publication Handelsblatt, which first reported the split buy. It will also buy Growlers to replace the Tornados that carry out an electronic attack role. However, only the legacy F/A-18 Hornet — not the Super Hornet — was ever certified to carry the B61, wrote Justin Bronk, a research fellow with the Royal United Services Institute, a U.K. based thinktank that covers defense issues. That means that the Super Hornet will have to go through the certification process, said Bronk, who called the split buy “the worst of all previously mooted outcomes.” Boeing spokesman Justin Gibbons said that while the Super Hornet is not yet certified to carry the B61, the company has the U.S. government’s support for future integration.“The F/A-18 Super Hornet is capable of being certified to meet B61 requirements for Germany under its timeline. Boeing has a proven track record of successfully integrating weapons systems that meet the needs of both U.S. and international customers,” he said. Gibbons declined to comment on the timing of Germany’s deadline for competitive reasons.......... |
Boeing has a proven track record of successfully integrating weapons systems that meet the needs of both U.S. and international customers |
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/n...ment-2jlqfb53q
Nuclear row over US jets splits Angela Merkel government The German defence minister has angered her centre-left coalition partners by forging ahead with a plan to buy 45 US fighter jets, 30 of which will be fitted to carry American atom bombs. Germany’s fleet of roughly 90 Tornado jets, the symbol of Berlin’s commitment to upholding the Nato nuclear umbrella, must be replaced from 2025. Yet Angela Merkel’s coalition is rancorously divided over the next generation of nuclear-capable aircraft. The defence ministry, controlled by Mrs Merkel’s close ally Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, wants 90 Eurofighters from Airbus, the European aerospace giant, and 30 F-18 Super Hornets and 15 F-18 Growler jets from Boeing, its American rival. The left-wing Social Democratic party (SPD), however, is uncomfortable about spending so much on US hardware and its MPs insist on having a say in the decision. The dispute came to a head on Sunday when it emerged that Mrs Kramp-Karrenbauer had emailed her US counterpart, Mark Esper, saying that Germany was ready to order the F-18s. The US has about 150 B61-12 air-launched nuclear bombs in Europe, with 20 or so stored at the Büchel air base in western Germany. Opinion polls suggest that an overwhelming majority of the public want them gone but the government regards them as a pillar of the country’s Nato membership. Torben Schütz, a research fellow in security and defence policy at the German Council on Foreign Relations (DGAP), said the F-18 order was “very closely bound up with Germany’s continued role as an active partner in Nato’s shared nuclear deterrent”. Anti-nuclear MPs have accused Mrs Kramp-Karrenbauer of cutting the Bundestag out of the decision. Fritz Felgentreu, the defence spokesman for the SPD group in the Bundestag, said it would withdraw its support for the ministry unless it changed course. “As long as we have no opportunity to examine the ministry’s choice, to evaluate it critically and to compare it against the alternatives, the SPD will certainly not go along with this process,” he said. The nuclear question has taken on a sharper significance since Russia stationed large numbers of medium-range cruise missiles within striking range of European capitals. While the other seven EU states which house US bombs have all bought state-of-the-art F-35 fighter jets to carry them, Germany’s choice to acquire a combination of older models from Europe and the US reflects its delicate strategic tightrope act. “Franco-German and US-German relations are at the centre of this in political terms,” Mr Schütz said. “If you order as many Eurofighters as possible you strengthen Airbus, which is . . . supposed to develop and build the next generation of fighter jets at the behest of the French and German governments. But at the same time it’s important for Germany to maintain relations with the US, which is where buying American aircraft helps.” |
You'd think Germany didn't have any Typhoon infrastructure the way that nut job is talking.
|
Originally Posted by weemonkey
(Post 10758066)
You'd think Germany didn't have any Typhoon infrastructure the way that nut job is talking.
|
The problem is the SPD rep has thrown the toys out of his pram because he didn't have a chance to grandstand and then negotiate a quid-pro-quo to let the decision go-ahead in return for a favour somewhere else. It's not one they're going to die in a ditch for as they know the electorate won't be impressed
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Were they not offered Strike Eagle?!!
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Just goes to show that even 40 plus years on, the trusty Tornado takes some serious money and equipment to replace its full capabilities.
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Originally Posted by unmanned_droid
(Post 10758443)
Were they not offered Strike Eagle?!!
|
Originally Posted by pr00ne
(Post 10765965)
I think they were looking for a modern aircraft, not an aircraft that first flew before the one they are trying to replace!
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When the Germans needed a replacement for the Lockheed F-104G in the strike role, the US piled on the pressure, aiming to persuade Germany to procure a US-built fighter.
In those far off days, the Germans had enough balls and backbone to procure the aircraft that their own industry was producing, that their own taxpayers and workers were benefiting from and effectively told the US that if they wanted the Luftwaffe to deliver American nuclear weapons, then they, the US, would have to integrate the B61 on their new Tornados. It was very much in the USA's interest to 'burden share' with its allies, and it integrated B61 on the Tornado without further demur. The same is true today, and if Germany were to stick to its guns again, the USA would need to decide whether it wanted the Luftwaffe to share in the strike role, and if it does (and it will) then it would have to integrate the B61 on the Luftwaffe's choice of platform. Unless a gutless and supine German Ministry of Defence gives the impression that it can be bullied into selecting the platform that the US wants it to procure.... Design of a nuclear weapons pylon for the Eurofighter is well advanced, thanks to the Belgian campaign, when the Commander of the Belgian Air Component was shown a strike mission in the sim/rig, with production representative software. Nuclear weapons integration on the Super Hornet is not any further advanced. For Speedywheels - the Super Hornet does not have any strike capability. |
Originally Posted by Jackonicko
(Post 10766469)
For Speedywheels - the Super Hornet does not have any strike capability.
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I haven't followed it closely. Isn't the issue the germans wont/cant give the codes to the US and probably from the US side too. To be able to get it working with the eurofighter?
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