|
Admiral Lord West Trident demands
What are our views on the Admiral's comments?
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...rth-korea-over A former senior military official has accused the Government of acting "like North Korea" by refusing to come clean about a Trident nuclear missile test that went awry. Admiral Lord West, the former head of the navy, said it was “bizarre and stupid” that ministers had chosen to keep quiet about the reported malfunction. Lord West demanded the Government comes to Parliament to explain why the “absolutely stupid” decision was made and to reassure MPs that the Trident system is working properly. |
how old are the m->?
|
Think the thoughts of VSOs re armed forces's performance should be placed under the 30yr rule!:D
OAP |
The Admiral's words are interesting - and there's obviously more to this than meets the eye.
That Politics Home report that you evince, Basil, also includes an account of Andrew Marr asking the Prime Minister four times whether she knew about the embarrassing tack the missile took before she took part in the debate about whether we should continue with Trident. And four times she avoided answering the question. Here's what she said, according to Politics Home. Mrs May ducked four questions on whether she knew about the incident in an interview with the Andrew Marr Show this morning. “I have absolute faith in our Trident missiles,” she replied the first time. “When I made that speech in the House of Commons, what we were talking about was whether or not we should renew our Trident, whether or not we should have Trident missiles and an independent nuclear deterrent in the future.” Asked again, the Prime Minister tried to turn the issue to Jeremy Corbyn’s scepticism on Trident: “I think we should defend our country, I think we should play our role in Nato with an independent nuclear deterrent; Jeremy Corbyn thinks differently, Jeremy Corbyn thinks we shouldn’t defend our country.” The third time, Mrs May said she had been talking about important matters in the Commons. “The issue we were talking about in the House of Commons was a very serious issue. It was about whether or not we should renew Trident, whether we should look to the future and have a replacement Trident. That’s what we were talking about in the House of Commons, that’s what the House of Commons voted for. I believe in defending our country; Jeremy Corbyn voted against it, he doesn’t want to defend our country with an independent nuclear deterrent.” Asked bluntly by Mr Marr – “Prime Minister, did you know?” – she replied: “There are tests that take place all the time, regularly for our nuclear deterrents.” Theresa May refuses to answer questions on Trident 'misfire' - BBC News Her evasions look like a smoking gun to me. airsound |
Looks like a piece of cake for various groups of journalists that are good in tossing dead flies and convert them into combat elephants.
Here is one more article, from a former dominion: http://shoofee.ca/2017/01/22/uk-cove...e-veers-to-us/ The reality is that things happen, and "all concerned" were/are, no doubt, monitoring such launches and did not cry outloud. |
That may be true, A Van, but surely the fact that a missile had significantly malfunctioned would have been relevant to a parliamentary debate about the missile's future?
airsound |
Aircraft crash and missiles fail. The deterrent does not depend on every missile working - each boat carries up to 16 and half of those are redundant - so there is multiple redundancy. So I don't see what the great problem is.
|
Well Orac, unlike on test missiles there isn't a 'whoops, its gone off-course' destruct button for the real things (according to The Sunday Times anyway). So, the balloon goes up, the dreadful decision to launch is made - & we nuke our allies... :sad: :ouch:
|
Well Orac, unlike on test missiles there isn't a 'whoops, its gone off-course' destruct button for the real things The bus holding the warheads is programmed to manoeuvre exactly to release each warhead in the precise position and course/speed for a ballistic re-entry exactly on target. Any of the paramaneters don't match the warhead isn't activated, the batteries not started and the warheads remain multiply safed and in the bus. And if we fire a live armed missile in anger, I doubt an inert warhead and bus falling to earth will be the top of the problem list. |
The bus holding the warheads is programmed to manoeuvre exactly to release each warhead in the precise position and course/speed for a ballistic re-entry exactly on target. Any of the paramaneters don't match the warhead isn't activated, the batteries not started and the warheads remain multiply safed and in the bus. And if we fire a live armed missile in anger, I doubt an inert warhead and bus falling to earth will be the top of the problem list. |
ORAC is right. It can't fly off course for a long time and hit, say, NYC.
Airsound: these are definitely UK internal practice and procedures, but for me, as a foreigner, it sounds counter-productive to raise such issues to crowds of politicians. IMHO, it is purely technical/mil issue. Their investigation board should take care, and only if they come to a conclusion that there are fundamental problems, some request should be brought at the highest level. Again, MHO only. |
Lyneham Lad, see page 258.
http://www.scienpress.com/Upload/JCM/Vol%204_1_15.pdf "The D5 missile has the capability of carrying either Mk 4 or Mk 5 re-entry vehicles as its payload. The D5 re-entry subsystem consists of either Mk 4 or Mk 5 re- entry vehicle assemblies attached by four captive bolts to their release assembly and mounted on the ES. STAS and pre arming signals are transferred to each re-entry vehicle shortly before deployment through the separation sequencer unit. When released, the re-entry vehicle follows a ballistic trajectory to the target where detonation occurs in accordance with the fuse option selected by fire control through the preset subsystem. The re-entry vehicle contains an AF&F assembly, a nuclear assembly, and electronics. The AF&F provides a safeguard to prevent detonation of the warhead during storage and inhibits re-entry vehicle detonation until all qualifying arming inputs have been received. The nuclear assembly is a Department of Energy (DoE) supplied physics package........." |
Not sure you want to tell your enemies too clearly that your missiles suck rather than blow!
|
Ex Patrick
Who are our enemies?? You cannot nuke the whole middle east. Well the Americans could but we can't The Russians are best friends of the new Pres who presumeably has the final word over whether we can launch 'our' 6 nukes. I know we have a few more but assume like the rest of the UK they have post it notes stuck on them with some form of excuse as to why they don't work We are trying to suck up to not blow up China (even though we mortally offended them over the power station debacle) We are not an enemy of North Korea (indeed we seem to be trying to emulate it as far as isolation is concerned) So just who are these missiles targeted at-I mean if we do not know who to point them at does it matter if they go wrong -especially if they were to fall on mainland Europe. |
Airsound
That may be true, A Van, but surely the fact that a missile had significantly malfunctioned would have been relevant to a parliamentary debate about the missile's future? |
Originally Posted by pax britanica
(Post 9649810)
Ex Patrick
Who are our enemies?? You cannot nuke the whole middle east. Well the Americans could but we can't The Russians are best friends of the new Pres who presumeably has the final word over whether we can launch 'our' 6 nukes. I know we have a few more but assume like the rest of the UK they have post it notes stuck on them with some form of excuse as to why they don't work We are trying to suck up to not blow up China (even though we mortally offended them over the power station debacle) We are not an enemy of North Korea (indeed we seem to be trying to emulate it as far as isolation is concerned) So just who are these missiles targeted at-I mean if we do not know who to point them at does it matter if they go wrong -especially if they were to fall on mainland Europe. |
A Van is correct.
The reality is that things happen, and "all concerned" were/are, no doubt, monitoring such launches and did not cry outloud. I know of one occasion when an aircraft On State for 10 days could not have dropped its weapon. Nothing would have been gained by broadcasting it in the Daily Express*. *The Daily Express in those days was the 'must read' paper at breakfast when you could read the secret at the same time as the MOD Box :) |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 9649825)
A Van is correct.
The importance of deterrence is not whether it will work but whether the other side thinks it will work. |
Air Pig
debate was to renew the submarines not the missile “The issue we were talking about in the House of Commons was a very serious issue. It was about whether or not we should renew Trident |
You have to admire politicians who have such command of their mouths and body language that they can avoid a yes/no answer.
Probably why we mere mortals have to remember the mantra "It is not HMG policy to confirm or deny . . . " |
A Van
counter-productive to raise such issues to crowds of politicians. I still think that, for the parliamentary debate to have gone ahead when Mrs May, at least, apparently knew about the problem, was undemocratic, and, as Lord West says, smacks of totalitarian states. airsound |
Rearrange these words.... Teacup, a, in,Storm.
|
Originally Posted by airsound
(Post 9649854)
A Van
I still think that, for the parliamentary debate to have gone ahead when Mrs May, at least, apparently knew about the problem, was undemocratic, and, as Lord West says, smacks of totalitarian states. |
The evasion of the question was a bit cringeworthy and will not help her going forward. Surely, much easier just to say "we never discuss publicly the position or status of the nuclear deterrent etc...." That excuse could have been used (rightly or wrongly) to explain her failure to mention in parliament also.
|
Originally Posted by Wycombe
(Post 9649875)
The evasion of the question was a bit cringeworthy and will not help her going forward. Surely, much easier just to say "we never discuss publicly the position or status of the nuclear deterrent etc...." That excuse could have been used (rightly or wrongly) to explain her failure to mention in parliament also.
Totally agree ! However, the tactic of not answering any question seems to be totally ingrained with all politicians, |
Labour MPs are demanding an enquiry into their Trident failure.
They say that the trio of Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott fail spectacularly everytime they stick their heads above water. One of the MPs summed them up by saying, "They are totally ineffective, a waste of money, always veer off course and consistently fail to hit enemy targets". |
Airsound.
Lord West was a Sea Lord, he now is a Labour party peer and previously an Undersecretary of State under Gordon Brown in his cabinet - and as such any statements he makes must be considered as political to attack the government than independent. If you sup with the devil, use a long spoon. |
Cant understand why she didnt use Trump's methods... ie "That is a lie perpetuated by the dishonest media, its false news. That missile worked as intended, it was a beautiful thing".
|
Nobody in the UK is authorised to talk about D5 missile capabilities, potential failures or potential issues past or present.
Nobody. Not even Mrs May. Want to talk D5? Then try phoning the country that designs, builds and maintains them and issues a very tight policy on disclosures for their one and only foreign customer (and rightly so). So the PM evaded the question - well done her. |
The problem is LM and MoD make a song and dance about every successful test releasing videos and fact sheets (search You Tube), inevitably when one fails and that fact is covered up it doesn't look good. A simple statement at the time 'failed launch, no danger, inquiry, absolute confidence in system etc...' and it would be the non story some on here think it is. Govt hushed it up and now others will make political capital out of it, well they would if JC was capable. The worst thing is it further erodes public confidence in politicians; the deceitful, untrustworthy political elite stereotype has been further reinforced.
|
Lord West was a Sea Lord, he now is a Labour party peer and previously an Undersecretary of State under Gordon Brown in his cabinet - and as such any statements he makes must be considered as political to attack the government than independent. |
A Van,
Spot on . |
Comes back to that old chestnut, "Need to know". People who don't need to know get so pissed off when they are excluded from briefings etc. including this ex Sea Lord, now a Labour politician, who has ventured out on a sh*t stirring exercise against his opposition. A "we don't discuss etc" should have been enough.
Weapon fired, weapon failed, problem identified, problem solved, NFA. It is a weapon of war and we don't provide our potential enemy with the minutes of a political discussion, we are back to Need to Know. |
Lets keep in mind that while Lord West may be a FORMER Admiral, he is now a Labour politician. And as such has a strong interest in diverting as much attention as possible from the shambolic nuclear stance of his own party leader.
|
Why be so defensive? There was no danger to anyone. If every trial missile failure the UK has ever had ended up on the Marr show, it would be the only topic!
The press are ill informed and over-sensitive. |
Does Trident have a valid "Safety Case"?
;) |
Its not a trial missile- Trident is fully operational and this launch was to confirm that it is thus- the fact that it has gone entirely wrong is deeply worrying if you are minded to think the ultimate weapon system you are employing will actually work.
Not a storm in a tea cup at all- multiple issues militarily and politically. Timing of this release in a major newspaper was possibly done to undermine PM May by a right wing newspaper as she goes into the most demanding of periods of negotiation over Brexit and with new POTUS (and she is relatively inexperienced as a PM). It damns her all ways and she cannot win here. This is a lead domestic story tonight on all UK TV news . To suggest Lord West as some sort of Labour mouthpiece owned by them is disingenuous and almost a slur. Hide behind your keyboard in shame. The missile was supposed to be launched and delivered under planned circumstance to have it firing possibly 180 degree wrong trajectory is a safety issue in anybody's book. I expect better from Pruners, given your backgrounds, former ranks and relative experience. |
So, the balloon goes up, the dreadful decision to launch is made - & we nuke our allies... |
Or even know?
|
I expect better from Pruners, given your backgrounds, former ranks and relative experience |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 18:02. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.