Former Paras prosecuted for Murder in 1974
 

In the press today - former paratroopers to be prosecuted for murder of Joe McCann in 1974. WTF??

On the one hand, the piece of dog-excrement that is Bliar managed to include amnesties between the Labour Government and Sinn Fein - effectively protecting 200 terrorists from prosecution. A number of convicted terrorists in prison were also pardoned and released.

On the other hand, long-retired Servicemen are now being investigated and charged with murder for events that happened decades ago.

Beggars belief. I would never have given 22 years to the Crown knowing what I do now. This Country is corrupt to the core - nobody in their right mind should serve in the military.

The law is the law - you can't pick or choose

They've just done a guy 101 years old for sex crimes in the 70's

Presumably they think they have enough evidence to stand up in court - it has to be tough after so long but just because you serve in the Armed Forces doesn't mean you can get away with murder..................... or anything else

I'm inclined to agree with you Heathrow, but by the same token 'what's good for the Goose, is good for the Gander' and if amnesties are being handed out as they are to the IRA then they should be handed out to all parties or none.

And as no military aircraft, aircrew or backroom staff have any involvement in this, surely this subject does not live in this forum! Oh, Conservative government has also been in charge of the country for 6 1/2 years. Blame them.

Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn has appointed Jayne Fisher, Sinn Feins London head, as an aide.
She has very close links to convicted IRA murderers and terrorists.

More good men put through hell to appease who, terrorists who were happy to murder their own people purely based on their religious affiliations ?

I'm sure that dredging up prosecutions against old soldiers will help the healing process though :hmm:

1, The Paras, by definition , have a very close connection with the RAF.

2, It is the independent Attorney General for Northern Ireland who is leading this, a post created by Labour.

"My responsibilities and role are exercised independently of any other persons."

John Larkin QC
Attorney General for Northern Ireland

In the context of this thread, one has to ask, how many people would not have given xx years to the Crown if they knew that what they might do would be found out and subjected to the law.
Can't argue with the last bit, although I'm not sure about the implication of the first bit that subjecting military behaviour in a civil war to the law is evidence of corruption.

"The law has to be seen to be done."
"The law is an ass."

Law has to be interpreted, "is this in the public interest".

But whom interprets?

How can a guy being done for sex crimes be compared with a man serving his country and protecting local civilians from the cowards of the IRA and other paramilitaries?


From the BBC report:



So they think they have enough evidence without even being able to speak to pólice officers who were present at the scene? All they have is a 40 year old report written by these guys who now can´t be identified?
Meanwhile gangs of these murdering cowards are walking the streets of N.I. totally free.

Just by way of a clarification. Joe McCann was a member of the Official IRA, not the Provisional IRA, and as such is unlikely to have had links with Sinn Féin. The OIRA enacted a ceasefire in 1972.

Even more than their more militarily active brethren in the Provo's, the OIRA where even more Marxist than the larger group.

Both groups along with their political wings are intent on turning Ireland into Cuba, just without the sunshine.

Joe McCann: Official IRA leader had sought a socialist Ireland

JAS

HH
The law isnt always the law and politicians DO pick and choose.
That is why a whole bunch of criminals who murdered civilians, police and soldiers often in front of their children were given lifetime 'get out of jail free' pardons by the UK government, while these two servicemen who have already been through TWO inquieries are now going to have a third ordeal!

Witch hunt, I fear they won't be getting anything near a fair trial.

This article in the Belfast Telegraph doesn't exactly describe McCann as the nice average neighbour you would want living within 50 miles of your house, and goes on to say he was regarded by the security forces as a dangerous terrorist.

It would be nice to see a similar effort and financial input being put into bringing the scum to trial who spent their time murdering innocent men, women, kids etc with car bombs, letter bombs, drive by shootings, a shotgun fired through the letter box, petrol bomb through the living room window etc. Not to forget the kneecapping and 1001 new ways to f*k up someone with a black n decker that they worked out.

A conviction and long jail term would be even nicer although that would be wishful thinking.

I think ARRSE may be slightly more vocal and less reserved in their feelings on the matter...

Its a difficult one but a simple question............

If you do something as a civilian should the law be different because you put on a Uniform.

No but it would appear to be so when it suits some politicians:yuk:

Much that it sticks in my throat, I suspect one of the issues is that the soldiers were meant to be an arm of the law. if they acted outside the (very clear?) directions they had, then there is an argument that they should be punished.

Northern Ireland continues to be a funny place that no one really wants to take under their wing. Nothing much has changed in my 30+ years of kicking around The Village. :(

Yes. Army personnel are not police officers.
The pollies knew this when they deployed them.

Pollies are always pollies; even the great WSC sought to distance himself from Bomber Command. Probably the most disgraceful thing he did in his life.

Why are they being prosecuted now, what is it 42 years or 44 after the event?
People are rightly concerned that IRA and UVF have been convicted for murder but freed on license under the terms of the GFA. Bringing new prosecutions just doesn't make sense really, anymore.
We should be drawing a line under this; all this will bring is a reopening of old bitter memories for everyone.
In the UK we seem to be in cycle now of constantly investigating and prosecuting only Other Ranks to dates and actions selected in a most curious manner. But conversely Officers even at low level seem to be avoiding prosecution. No Senior officers ever seem to be prosecuted for the alleged actions of their men. That's the impression I take from the press. It must be having a deeply corrosive effect.
All of this will be massively damaging to execution of future operations, in fact it is utterly disastrous.
We aint arf making blunder after blunder these days.
I wouldn't join now, and if I was in would be actively seeking a way out. Make one mistake, or even be traced to be seen to have served in theatre in the future could lead to years of uncertainty.
I expect bomber pilots now, UAV operators now will be held up to account for their actions in many of the places they have bombed in the years ahead, mark my words well. You will be tossed aside when you have served you masters, its the British way.

The Good Friday agreement granted absolution to the Nationalists convicted or suspected of atrocities in a craven abrogation of the law. Such an amnesty should also be afforded to those attempting to maintain a ceasefire between the factions in Northern Ireland

I saw what you did there, Harry.

Kind of one way viewpoint which is not factual.

GFA granted Parole to all irrespective of whom they represented.

This Licensed parole was revoked on occasion particularly in the case of Michael Stone who tried to bomb Stormont in 2006.

His actions at Milltown in attacking a funeral for 3 IRA killed in Gibraltar and killing 3 directly lead to the savage murders of Corporals Wood and Howes.
He previously planned to travel to London and kill Ken Livingstone until Special Branch acted.

GFA applies to ALL not just PIRA/INLA/UDA/UVF/RHC................ it includes British Army and RUC.

In unlikely event of this even getting to trial which is a very long shot and a conviction even a bigger long shot the conditions of the GFA apply.

racedo, that is good to know. Though one should never hide behind 'I was just following orders', as many SS Nazi's did, I abhor the PC attitude of many in government who seek a witch hunt for their own political gain. IMHO, a previous PM is the worse culprit and should be tried for war crimes. As the saying goes 'He got us into this mess'.

I sincerely hope you are correct racedo but in the meantime these two guys have to go through all this crap again. I also hope they feel as confident of a good result as you do.
I am of a similar age and I know that I would feel absolutely destroyed if I was in their place.

I think you will find many RAF Regt operated in NI... they are some of the backroom boys you refer to.

Rudyard Kipling spoke for all Servicemen a century ago:
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot.

It's great to see these injustices righted, but Plod isn't going far enough. What about Fighter Command's shoot-to-kill policy in 1940? There's a few old pilots still around, you know. As for Bomber Command and their raids, there must be a few more collars to feel even yet. I'm sure the brave Mr Shiner would be glad to lead his brigade of gallant lawyers into action at very reasonable cost, another £million or two should do it.
Mind how you go!

Geriaviator,

In that post you display just how much you don't understand about murder and the the incredible responsibility and pressure that Government places on those who it decides can kill legally.

I feel sorry for these two former soldiers. Once again our government goes out of it's way to go after it's own troops that they sent to act as armed policemen; without the training.

I thought the GFA was supposed to bury the wrong-doing by both sides and bring an end to the troubles. Re-opening these cases will only bring those events to the fore again.

I'm sure no good will come of it and further undermines our Service Personnel, betrayed yet again.

Out Of Trim

Undermine? Betrayed?

We are talking murder here.

And please put it in context. The enquiry and investigation is looking at each and every one of the 3,000 or so deaths attributed to the troubles.

And the GFA applies to everyone concerned, not just a specific few.

I'm sure the fact that the Attorney General for Northern Ireland was picked for the job by Sinn Fein, who then chose the Director of Public Prosecutions, and that they both had Gerry Adams as a former client, had nothing to do with the decision to prosecute former members of the military.... :hmm:

Murder or Execution or Attempted Arrest of a known terrorist who was usually armed that went wrong. I don't know.

I wasn't there!

In a War, combatants on both sides get shot at. Just because this was a civil war doesn't change that sometime you have to defend yourself in battle. ie. Shoot first before they shoot you! The rules of engagement meant that these troops had one hand tied behind their back. Do you get shot while waiting until the ROE allow or take the shot in the hope you survive. A difficult call for anyone!

It seems strange that there was never an officer around when this was going on. Keeping there heads down probably.. REMFs would appear to apply.

Then 44 years later you may face prosecution by your own Country because an enemy that had already killed some of your colleagues had died. This is not murder in my opinion and should not be brought before a civil court. This stinks and I'm glad That neither I or .prOOne. were ever put in this position.

Just lucky I guess..

I wouldn't join again either, knowing that you would be hung out to dry by your own Government. Disloyalty by the Establishment like this will be remembered and will have far reaching effects in the future.

All this is quite unbelievable. Our society has gone stark raving mad.

In other News
 

To really put this into perspective!
On the same day this was announced, an MP was advised he would NOT be prosecuted for offering to supply class A drugs to a couple of 'playmates' even though the evidence was on video and in the hands of the Police.
So much for justice being blind!?! Seems there is more than one set of criteria.

KB

Really? Rubbish......the law is applied selectively! This is a disgrace....if the law is the law, why did they give amnesty's to all the murdering scum who killed innocent men and women......not to mention the servicemen put in harms way by the cretins with their grubby hands on the levers of power?! While I'm at it, I also believe Alex Blackman didn't get a fair trial......give me strength!!!:ugh:

We are on a slippery slope. More of the same, much more of these sort of prosecutions will be the new norm. Look at the intakes of barristers and lawyers and what ethnic groups they are from. We have a British Pakistani London mayor. In the future our senior law makers will be from ethnic groups that aren't White British but similar... perhaps they wont look favourably on what has gone on in the early 21st century in Asia minor. I'll play the race card right now and say things will get much worse for serving people because of the scale of recent violence abroad.
No one below the rank of WO will be exempt. It seems to be always directed at gun carriers and not the swagger stickers.
No one is above the law, but I imagine its confusing for under educated young Britons about what they supposed to do, how hard they have to fight.
Which will make things harder to recruit quality in the future.
I'm just spelling it out in case someone reads this of influence.

Elsewhere I have offered the view that when questioned, the accused say that it's all so long ago and they have been subject to such trauma since, due to their service, that they can't remember accurately the things of which they are accused and so how can they offer a defence.

Furthermore, and given the disposal of weapons, they should demand the retesting of weapons used in the incidents and also demand that whoever countersigned the log in which the weapons issues were recorded is a key witness to testify.

If the security of the evidence trail is as robust as some, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that a smart barrister won't drive a coach and horses through the prosecutions case.

Old Duffer

Duffer they are going to be hung out to dry.

The claims of bias do not appear when you start looking at the details behind what is being looked at.

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov...nquiries-team/

Seems like there have been issues in relation to Historical Enquiry Team................"the HET treats state involvement cases differently as a matter of policy and this appears to be based on a misinterpretation of the law. This is entirely wrong, and has led to state involvement cases being reviewed with less rigour in some areas than non-state cases; and"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histor...m#cite_note-22

It has looked at all sides

Man arrested over 1977 murder of Guisborough soldier on tour of duty during Northern Ireland troubles (From The Northern Echo)

Northern Ireland: Man arrested over Kingsmill massacre of 10 Protestant workmen 40 years ago | The Independent

Veteran loyalist faces two murder charges connected to Troubles - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

As a result of killing of Joe McCann, OIRA shot 5 soldiers killing 3 in following day...........

Lesson:
No videos, no pictures and keep your mouth shut.

Situation:
Civillian shot by British soldier subsequently found to be unarmed.
Aye, a bit like Duggan was 'unarmed'.

There's always a reason; finding it may not be so easy.

IRA GUNS DOWN AIRMAN, INFANT DAUGHTER IN WEST GERMANY | Deseret News

Lest anyone need an example of how weak the position is of those who are bringing this prosecution against the two British Soldiers, have a read of the attachment. I could clearly remember the incident at the time and knew I could find reference to it. Indeed, with the IRA immune to prosecution for all their past acts of violence, this really does leave a bitter taste in the mouth when the moral position and justification of their behaviour and that of the British Army are compared. I wonder how the 'families' and the 'lawyers' for 'victims' of the British Army rationalize continuing to pursue the British Soldiers but leave the amnesty for the IRA and INLA in tact?

FB

Reading further background on the case it appears any weapon he posessed was removed before he travelled to Belfast, they knew he was going to be there, evidence highlighted that depite him running away almost all the shell casings were found in close proximity to the body.
Sounds like RUC had someone inside OIRA which suggests more than a chance encounter.
Maybe an attempt to remove someone to ensure a source moves higher up the pecking order.