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Well, depends which acts of heroism it is you're talking about. It's looking like he's playing a civilian with a boat going to help out in the evacuation - I wasn't aware there was an age limit for those people? Both of Rylance's grandfathers were POWs of the Japanese, and this maybe has led to his very strong pacifist views. Nothing wrong with that, but I am less impressed with his patronage of the Stop the War Coalition, which seems to exist to protest against all wars, except those where Russia is involved. Not a bad actor, though. |
Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav
(Post 9612592)
Sorry I thought you were referring to the naval rating I described in my previous post. Of course he could well be the right age for a civilian boat owner - plenty of men that age took part in the rescue.
Both of Rylance's grandfathers were POWs of the Japanese, and this maybe has led to his very strong pacifist views. Nothing wrong with that, but I am less impressed with his patronage of the Stop the War Coalition, which seems to exist to protest against all wars, except those where Russia is involved. Not a bad actor, though. The 'miscasting' of older actors (technically inaccurate, but completely understandable) has continued: Tom Hardy is shown as a pilot but is 39. And you're right about Rylance. His part in Bridge of Spies was more apt. |
The only dit I know about Dunkirk is the one my old mum spins me. As a child, her adult neighbour was a reservist Pioneer Corp private. He worked what they called "on the drops" down on the river (basically discharging coal from railway into collier ships),he was probably a tough working man normal for the era. He was called up on outbreak and then caught up in the whole debacle of evacuation of the BEF. He returned to England so shell shocked and frightened that he was immediately discharged from the Army. Upon return home he then fled to his bedroom and remained within his own four walls, without leaving the house, for weeks on end. Finally, grandmother heard the slow playing of a piano next door (through the wall)...this was the pioneer, starting to return to a slow recovery. Using music to calm himself.
All films are only even 1% true representation of the utter horror war inflicts upon the ordinary British working man IMHO. |
Chris Scott
BTW, no original 1929 Rolls-Royce "R" engine exists, they were all consumed in the development of the 1931 "R" engine. OAP |
For those interested, the 1929 "R" engine ran at full throttle for the whole race (upto 1 hour at 3000rpm and 13psi boost, 1900bhp)! The Unlimiteds go flashing through the racecourse, engines howling, air shearing, heat waves streaming. Four hundred eighty miles an hour is 8 miles a minute, and the elite racers take about 70 seconds to cover the 9.1 mile Reno course. If you could take a souped P-51 racer flying the circuit at Reno, slow time down, and examine just one second, what would you find? In that one second, the V-12 Rolls-Royce Merlin engine would have gone through 60 revolutions, with each of the 48 valves slamming open and closed 30 times. The twenty four spark plugs have fired 720 times. Each piston has traveled a total of 60 feet in linear distance at an average speed of 41 miles per hour, with the direction of movement reversing 180° after every 6 inches. Three hundred and sixty power pulses have been transmitted to the crankshaft, making 360 sonic booms as the exhaust gas is expelled from the cylinder with a velocity exceeding the speed of sound. The water pump impeller has spun 90 revolutions, sending 4 gallons of coolant surging through the engine and radiators. The oil pumps have forced 47 fluid ounces, roughly one-third gallon, of oil through the engine, oil cooler, and oil tank, scavenging heat and lubricating the flailing machinery. The supercharger rotor has completed 348 revolutions, its rim spinning at Mach 1, forcing 4.2 pounds or 55 ft³ of ambient air into the combustion chambers under 3 atmospheres of boost pressure. Around 9 fluid ounces of high octane aviation fuel, 7,843 BTUs of energy, has been injected into the carburetor along with 5.3 fluid ounces of methanol/water anti-detonant injection fluid. Perhaps 1/8 fluid ounce of engine oil has been either combusted or blown overboard via the crankcase breather tube. Over 1.65 million foot pounds of work have been done, the equivalent of lifting a station wagon to the top of the Statue of Liberty. In that one second, the hard-running Merlin has turned the propeller through 25 complete revolutions, with each of the blade tips having arced through a distance of 884 feet at a rotational velocity of 0.8 Mach. Fifteen fluid ounces of spray bar water has been atomized and spread across the face of the radiator to accelerate the transfer of waste heat from the cooling system to the atmosphere. In that one second, the aircraft itself has traveled 704 feet, close to 1/8 mile, or roughly 1.5% of a single lap. The pilot's heart has taken 1.5 beats, pumping 5.4 fluid ounces of blood through his body at a peak pressure of 4.7 inches of mercury over ambient pressure. Our pilot happened to inspire during our measured second, inhaling approximately 30 cubic inches (0.5 liter) of oxygen from the on-board system, and 2.4 million, yes million, new red blood cells have been formed in the pilot's bone marrow. In just one second, an amazing sequence of events have taken place beneath those polished cowlings and visored helmets. It's the world's fastest motorsport. Don't blink! |
Why is the pilot breathing oxygen at ground level? Even if this is some kind of forced aspiration system it would surely be air, not O2?
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Possibly because with the cut down canopy they tend suffer a lot more from exhaust gasses entering the cockpit.
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Onceapilot, I recall (from distant recesses) putting fuel into Atcherly's
car. He was, I think Air commodore, and had a nice Jag (???) with twin tanks. That would have been around 1960 (give or take) |
Suspect you're right Nutty.
Typhoon pilots (WW2) wore masks all the time due to problems with carbon monoxide entering cockpit - some kind of design fault IIRC. |
Thanks Nutty, Yes the unlimited racers are impressive developments. For me though, it is always the original prototypes and trailblazers that have the most historic value and technological majesty, in some cases!:ok:
Thanks esa-vark, If you look up that vid you can see the young grinning Fg Off RLR Atcherly at Calshot in 1929.:) OAP |
Well, I'm planning to go and see it when it's out. Christopher Nolan does not tend to disappoint.
And as for the close formation Spitfires, quite appropriate for the Area Fighting Tactics used by Fighter Command at the time. |
pr00ne. Yes, we had a big Empire. Just how long do you think it would have taken to get the troops and equipment from Canada, India, Australia, NZ etc, as opposed to Hitler being just across the Channel? Don't forget, if we had lost the B of B, the USA would not have had the big offshore aircraft/troop carrier in place, D Day wouldn't have happened, and then where would we be? FB:) |
I haven't seen the trailer, but the ad I saw depicted 3 well shaven men sitting on the beach like they were on their holidays. During those chaotic days, the troops didn't have anything to eat, let alone shave!
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Originally Posted by rolling20
(Post 9613444)
I haven't seen the trailer, but the ad I saw depicted 3 well shaven men sitting on the beach like they were on their holidays. During those chaotic days, the troops didn't have anything to eat, let alone shave!
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The advantage for the film makers of this film compared with others like Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Spee is the back story. The front story, OP Dynamo, is the framework but the little boat owners have a wider range of stories from which to draw and of the retreat, even more.
The new Dambuster film, if ever, is in a rigid setting where as the Dunkirk back story could be completely different from the earlier film. |
That looks great and if it connects with the young through actors, gci, and media so much the better..
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My Dad was in France in 1940. He made it out at Brest as part of Operation Ariel. It took a month to get from Reims to Brest - I have the diary he kept at the time, discovered after his death. He spoke about his experiences very rarely.
The one thing I immediately noticed in the trailer is how relatively clean everybody and everything looks. In Dad's diary one of the big events he related was having a wash in a river - once - in a month. |
I live near the River Thames in Ham with Teddington Lock very close by.
Apparently a local boat yard owner back in 1940 got 100 small boats together at Teddington Lock and they all set sail for Dunkirk. This website has some pics of the 'Little Ships' when they got together at Teddington for the Diamond Jubilee Pageant Dunkirk "Little Ships" return to Teddington Lock ? Teddington, Middlesex, UK |
but the ad I saw depicted 3 well shaven men sitting on the beach |
During WW1, the Royal Welsh Fusiliers were renowned for bull, even in the trenches. Robert Graves, a subaltern in the regiment, relates how his men complained about this, saying "they werent in the guards". His reply was that when they proved they could fight as well as the guards, he would ease off on kit inspections, etc. He went on to write that in fact regiments which took the most care about smartness and cleanliness tended to have the fewest cases of sickness, trench foot etc, and were generally more efficient fighting troops than their scruffy comrades.
Merely looking like someone in the SAS doesn't make you a good soldier. |
Originally Posted by noflynomore
(Post 9612775)
Why is the pilot breathing oxygen at ground level? Even if this is some kind of forced aspiration system it would surely be air, not O2?
The action of clipping one's mask to the helmet means the microphone is in position and you can got hot-mic hands free. |
I saw it yesterday and liked it, Nolan is far from the same old same old writer/director.
But it is Marmite, you'll either like it and forgive it's little production foibles (44 pattern helmet on the mole, radar on the destroyer(s) etc etc)... or you'll hate it.... |
Seconded. Appreciate the fact that they've not CGI'd the whole thing, rather than picking holes in the detail I would say. I thought it was frankly bloody good. Whoever did the soundtrack deserves an Oscar for the way they manipulate you during the film.
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Its a pretty stark film, with very little dialogue-but then again it was a pretty stark event all around.
The cinematography is incredible. The flying is very real, and its great to see real Spitfires and a Buchon-there's a shot of the Blenheim too. Its very good-no nod to Hollywood-just the very harsh reality of the situation as it unfolded. |
It all seems far FAR too neat, clean and tidy, "Saving Private Ryan" or "Band of Brothers" it sure aint!
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Why is the pilot breathing oxygen at ground level? Even if this is some kind of forced aspiration system it would surely be air, not O2? |
The 'miscasting' of older actors (technically inaccurate, but completely understandable) has continued: Tom Hardy is shown as a pilot but is 39 Many RAF pilots in the first months of the war had been with the RAF (or in RAFVR or Auxiliary) Squadrons for some years before the war, and were therefore in their 30's. The legend of the fresh-faced 18 year old Spitfire pilot going into battle with 40 hours in his log-book was a function of the desperate expansion of the RAF in the weeks after Dunkirk. R |
I'll agree with proone on the 'neatness' aspect, but I'd argue that actually it doesn't require that given the other devices it uses to generate the feeling of doom. In addition, the lack of it makes it available to a wider audience which can be a good thing.
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I am surprised no one has spotted a Routemaster bus...hat, coat.....
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Originally Posted by rcsa
(Post 9840177)
My Grandfather was a Hurricane pilot with 3 Sqn, killed in France in the days before Dunkirk. He was 34 years old, and looked no younger than Tom Hardy does now.
Many RAF pilots in the first months of the war had been with the RAF (or in RAFVR or Auxiliary) Squadrons for some years before the war, and were therefore in their 30's. The legend of the fresh-faced 18 year old Spitfire pilot going into battle with 40 hours in his log-book was a function of the desperate expansion of the RAF in the weeks after Dunkirk. R As regular's many were gnarly old sweats - they weren't all youngun's, and as mentioned, they all look far too clean. Looks like they also didn't employ the right people to advise on kit as well..... I have a photo of my Godfather taken about 6 months he was evacuated from Dunkirk, and although he was 23 at the time, he looks 10-15 years older :( Its entertainment though, not a documentary (so I keep telling myself) Apart from the brief use of ARC's Blenheim, its amusing that it was a British pilot flying the 'Luftwaffe' Buchon, and American pilots flying all the Spits for the filming, but given who owns the 3 x Spits, that shouldn't be a surprise. |
Just watched the movie today...I`m retired, so I can!
Some artistic licence for dramatic effect of course, but not a bad film. Quite good, in fact. As SWMBO says, it's intense and is cleverly done. It took me about 30 min to realise what was happening with the plot and the timelines, but once I got my head round it, it was easy to become 'immersed'. (Watch the film and you will see why) Worth paying a bit extra and viewing it at an IMAX, IMHO. Some lovely Spitfire shots, but ......I doubt that the 'engine off' performance is better than my K6 glider. (One example of the artistic licence) Not a documentary in any way.. and it failed to reach the level of realism in "Saving private Ryan" but its much better than 633 Sqn. A curates egg. 6.5/10 Worth a look.:) |
I wonder if the black dog film has not been produced yet as it would be difficult to match the near contemporary portrayal of the original with many actors who had actually served.
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 9840903)
I wonder if the black dog film has not been produced yet as it would be difficult to match the near contemporary portrayal of the original with many actors who had actually served.
The problem with the black dog film, PN, is what to call the black dog....at this rate, 617 will be retiring their F-35's before it sees the cinema screen.... |
I can agree with Geeram, my father joined the Army in 1925 and had his 30th birthday( 31st May) on the beach. I have pictures of him shortly after he returned home and he looked in his sixties. He never really spoke of what he went through other than the coincidence of meeting his brother in law on the beach as well. Completely different units and neither knew the other was in France at all. And according to my mother he was never the same man she married less than a year before. He still of course had another 5 years of war to go!!!
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The problem with the black dog film, PN, is what to call the black dog.. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: (x100) |
**Warning - Spoiler Alert**
Don't read this if you haven't seen the film yet. So I saw it and very much enjoyed it - caught the first showing at my local theater here in the states. Per my earlier post, sure enough there was a cowardly second lieutenant who managed to kill a teenage British boy in a fit of terror, but there was far more representation of personal sacrifice than open cowardice so I have no cause for complaint. The scene where the Spitfire runs out of fuel at 100' AGL and still manages to kill a Stuka 30 seconds later with conserved energy did remind a bit of a Jaffa orange - far fetched, and those Brownings seemed to have a lot of ammunition as well, but maybe I'm being picky. Apparently the French have been complaining that they didn't get much of a look-in which surprised me, because I thought they did - the depiction of them fighting a rearguard action reflected very well on them. Mark Rylance was superb as the private boat owner and Tom Hardy did a great job as the Spitfire pilot who refused to leave the fight - there were a few interesting comments about the perceived lack of air cover from the RAF, historical accuracy ? The final scene where one of the young soldiers comments that people will be spitting on them in the streets for having been defeated, only to be met at the train station by cheering crowds was entirely believable and quite moving. All in all I thought they told the story very well. |
Saw it here in Ottawa yesterday; great film, fabulous cinematography, treated the subject with respect (despite the Spitfire fuel/shooting down the Ju-87). Nicely done.
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I've just returned from the cinema in Fort Worth, Texas having watched Dunkirk. I will lay my cards on the table and say I thought it was bloody brilliant. If you are able to ignore the nit picking of some members of this forum and appreciate the movie for what it is I think you'll love it too.
The audience here was totally silent and, being an RAF fighter pilot (as a Jaguar mate I can just about get away with saying that) from Dorset I felt a fair amount of personal investment. It made me feel proud to be British and I think paid fair tribute to what happened and should reach out to a large audience in the process. The casting of Harry Styles was a clever move in this regard. Enough from me. BV |
Bob - I think the nitpicking is because it is a good film that could have been better (at least as far as aviators are concerned).
As mentioned the perpetual energy Spitfire - which clearly also had no engine when it burnt out on the beach (yes of course they wouldn't trash a real one but it was such an obvious fudge that could easily have been avoided) - the inconsistent height calls vs the actual height they were flying and the Batman-style dragging out of some of the dogfight scenes to increase the apparent jeopardy (not their use of offset timelines, that worked well once you understood what was happening), the unlimited ammunition in Tom Hardy's Spitfire, It is a good film but did they actually have an aviation advisor? |
Great Movie.
I agree with most of the aviation niggles, but in general the aviation side was better done than the Naval. (High threat environment, but point defense weapons not even manned; main QF weapons trained fore and aft?) But a memorable movie. |
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