UO, TIC, the enemy could get 9 with one bang, if that missed try for par 2 with the synchro pair. That slow loop off the top, perfect for no deflection or unguided rockets.

OTOH, as they always come from behind you they may get the enemy first and away provided no Bader rolls afterwards.

Typhoon is incredibly complex, maintenance intensive and requires a lot of support.
I've never worked on 29 Sqn but I imagine it has much more manpower than the Reds and you'll need to employ a thousand Bae guys in the background to have 9 a/c simultaniously serviceable over a season :-)

French have a very good 4-ship display team using Epsilon aircraft. Anyway, I gather there are some Grob's going spare...........

HH:-
The RAF Hawk that killed Flt Lt Cunningham was unairworthy (the Mk10 seat lacked a Safety Case for a start...). Is the RAF Hawk fleet now airworthy? The MAA hasn't said so. The Nimrod fleet was unairworthy and grounded, and a future replacement fleet scrapped. Is the Hawk following the same path as Nimrod?

I have always been amazed at the length of the Reds display season, and the number of venues they fly at. They seem to do many more shows and flyovers than most teams, over a very long season. Oversaturation? Does every event really need the Reds?


Could a "part time" team with instructor pilots even be considered? Yes I get that team aerobatics requires a great deal of attention and training, but if the team focused on a much shorter season, say training for three months, then a dedicated 3 month summer display season could it be done? This would allow the other 6 months for leave, having the team and maintainers serve as instructors etc., and do the occasional formation practice over the winter.


Non starter?

Numbers
 

With another thread running regarding Pilot retention, is a post on the Reds deemed a tour worthy of staying in for?

Or can future Pilot numbers justify having a display team?

Our friends at the Register, are running a poll.
What should the Red Arrows' new aircraft be? ? The Register

Can some one remind me where the Hawk production line is these days? Brough has a lot smaller footprint than it used to, so do they still build aircraft there?

Broughton is just commercial planes now i think, but its been a while since i was there (A380 production line installation).
My memory is a bit hazy on which site i was doing which job at, Warton or Broughton, typhoon line replaced Tornado line, but i dont remember seeing Hawk at either site.
Edit: Quick internet search seem to suggest Hawk is at Warton ans still knocking them out in 2014.

This quote from the RAF internet site explains it:

The Hawk T2 will be built at the BAE Systems site in Brough on Humberside and assembled at their Warton facility.

I had the pleasure of collecting a few brand new Hawk T2s from Warton a few years back. Flying in a jet where the paint in the cockpit is not chipped and the straps are not frayed was a rare luxury. It even had a pseudo new car smell to it.

BV

Think there are Hawks at Warton as seen a couple circling round the estuary yesterday as they do when testing them I think (get same regularly with Typhoons).

Reading this thread I feel obliged to clear up a few things...

1. Brough and Broughton are totally different sites. Brough is still part of BAE Systems and has been producing parts and, in the case of some of the RAF T2's, whole aircraft which have then done a one way flight to the other BAE Systems factory at Warton for flight tests, etc
2. Broughton was, many years ago, a BAE site but is now Airbus owned and produces wings for the airbus fleet, plus some GA tenants and some remnants of what was Raytheon/Hawker Beechcraft, which at least until recently were involved in support of the RAF's Sentinel and Shadow ISTAR fleets
3. Hawk is indeed still in production with new build aircraft for the Saudis currently undergoing flight test at Warton. Might be one other small order on the books but nothing else bar the Indians (who have their own line in India)

A small RAF order for additional T2's seems sensible in many ways as it both provides a few replacements for the T1's (which cant go on forever) and throws a temporary lifeline to military aircraft manufacturing in the UK.

Interesting to see what does happen next after the swift backtracking of the "confirmed" order.

As the size of the RAF drops....in time the Reds will be the RAF.

Size of the RAF is actually going to go up in the coming years, as new Tranche 3 Typhoons, F-35s, A400Ms, P-8s, Protector UAVs, Chinooks, and a new Shadow are introduced, and Tranche 1 Typhoons, E-3s, Sentinels, and C-130Js retained.

Maybe what's needed is a slightly down-spec'd T2, without all the weapons simulation gubbins and other operational training stuff?

Than again, you would need to have enough to cover attrition, and the basic Hawk design is getting long in the tooth anyway - maybe BAE need a new design to compete with the US TX contenders, AA M346 etc - on a 2030 OOS timescale, they might just be able to do that!


Whilst on the subject of the M346, it's interesting that the Italians are replacing the Frecce MB339s with M345s instead of M346s

As the size of the RAF drops....in time the Reds will be the RAF. - SASless

Surely not the Red Air Force....?:hmm:

Jack

Pilatus are supposedly selling the PC-21 to the French

T2 logically should be the next mount for the Reds ..........but I gather there are not a lot of airframes spare...

cheers

Ten brand new Typhoon Tranche 3s would be very expensive, very maintenance intensive, very noisy, and absolutely wonderful. A nice plus 10 on the available combat aircraft inventory wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Of course you could always put up 10 Chipmunks in deference to the Whitehall budget cutters and rename them the 'Red Pens'.

Put the Gnat back into production?

Herod - YEAA HO!