RAF Pilot Retention
 

Over the (relatively short) life of the RAF there have been a number of ‘critial points,’ at which whole structure is addressed and altered in order to address an issue. The current state of pilot manning is just that, a critical point. Ignoring the new aircraft types we have just taken on, the additional FJ Sqns planned, the ever present draw of the MFTS contract, Russian posturing, Brexit and an increasing need to ‘fly the Union Flag;’ I think the RAF is close to being below critical mass of key enablers. There comes a point where without quality flying instructors, formation leaders, Sqn supervisors and SQEP Officers manning critical staff positions the game quickly turns sour and exponential reductions in capability quickly follow.

Much has been written on this forum citing the various reasons for leaving, and each pilot walking out the door inevitably has a number of reasons to go. The fact is however that flying training is getting increasingly expensive, a Typhoon pilot costs just shy of around 16 Million GBP to train. An F35 pilot will undoubtedly be considerably more. A civilian company would never dream of investing this amount of cash in an employee, have them resign in droves and not address the reasons they are leaving!

The pay of a front line pilot falls woefully short of commercial equivalents. With flying training delays (not the fault of the employee) pilots often don’t attract flying pay until early-mid thirties. At the same time a guy joining a low cost airline would have easily amortized training costs, and is likely to be on track for a short haul command (lets say around 80k a year, fully pensionable?), we pay our pilots around 35k + a small amount of flying pay (I have deliberately steered away from the obvious Middle Eastern employment comparisons). Now let’s consider the length of working day of an ‘average’ FJ pilot; I think you’ll struggle to find a front line operator who doesn’t regularly bounce off the 13 hour aircrew fatigue limit. Then there’s the trivia; it is easier to fly an aircraft into Europe than it is to arrange off-station MT, pilots spending a night away at another base have to pay for the privilege of a dated mess room which would be undoubtedly substandard to any commercial operator, finally we (as the employer) think it totally acceptable to work our guys into the ground with substandard support just because we think they are ‘privileged to fly a fast jet.’ It is a privilege, but it’s bloody hard work and evidently the privilege quickly wears off!

The whole force career structure is broken. A civilian employer would never dream of paying the guy who runs the admin office the same as a guy with 16Million + pounds worth of training who has multiple employment opportunities outside. I greatly value the work done by ground branch Officers, but the fact is that they are not as expensive to train, critical to the operation of the Force, or (and this is the clincher) as employable elsewhere. I have no doubt that it is now time for a specialist pay scale (like medics, and lawyers…. Also very employable outside) for pilots, this could even be type specific – should a Tucano pilot earn the same as an F35 jock? The planned changes to aircrew pay fall horrendously short of addressing the issues and I think we will continue to lose trained pilots at an alarming rate; a rate only to be exasperated when the ’75 pension crowd have moved on!

Since the other thread on the 'current PVR rate' has degenerated in to a slanging match and arguably isn't on the same subject (as retention covers people leaving at Option Points, Exit Points as well as under PVR terms) I'll stick my head above the parapet and give, what I feel, are the answers to your questions. Taking each of your paragraphs in turn:

Agreed, and if the RAF doesn't start to look at this we will descend deeper in what is already a bad situation. I understand 2019 is the biggest pinch point so we're not even there yet.

I'm not a FJ mate, but a ME PAS Flt Lt. I happen to quite like what I do, the aircraft I fly has many esoteric disciplines and having not been on it that long and as I'm within my PAS RoS, I'm still keen and interested.

That said, I'm 99% leaving when my PAS RoS ends. Why? Pay and Pension.

Pay is not the be all and end all of the equation, especially as said, I like flying military aircraft. I suspect up to a point most of us do. However, as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, the benefits of Service Life have been gradually eroded to almost nothing, such that once the novelty of flying wears off, the only comparison to outside becomes pay. Since we're not paid parity with outside, when there are no extra incentives to stay (and many incentives to leave such as time away, chaotic programming, living in crap accommodation) the decision is easy. In addition, the added uncertainly over future military pensions (is AFPS 15 the last change to our pensions we'll see?) and the rumours of taxing the lump sum, all mean it's easier to take the money and run rather than risk staying in and seeing further reductions.

I recently attended a meeting with some Civil Servants that asked the question on what would keep me in. I stated what I said above ie why are Pilots paid what Adminers are paid? I'm not being precious here, I'm genuinely not, but why do we pay our pilots based on rank and not what they're worth? We don't pay our Doctors and Dentists like that and they hold rank too. In doing so, we will only retain a pilot until the novelty wears off.

At the end of the day, I have to do what's right for me and my family. If the RAF wants to change the way and the amount it pays it's pilots for the better in order to offset the issues of military life, then great. If not, then I and many others will leave. It's a shame, but it's as simple as that.

Spot on Skaterboi. A colleague on this side of the pond recently 'released' (as it seems many are doing at the moment). His reasons were pretty much identical; Air Canada, Westjet et al are ramping up recruiting and many who are beyond ROS are looking to go outside.

I'm with Skater and Huey on this one:

There are specialist pay spines for Vets, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Chaplains, Nurses, Nuclear Engineers and SF.

Pilots however will get paid the same as PEdos and Adminers.

Now, I know there are some who will cry, "But you get Retention and Recruitment Pay" Yeah - but quite a few years after you've been recruited and you'll have to be retained quite a few too!

There will be those who cry, "If you don't like it then leave" - pilots are.

I'm not writing this to enter into some sort of 'us and them' p*ssing contest, rather its market forces. The RAF doesn't pay enough - see ya!

On the other hand, the RAF pays handsomely if you want to be an Admin Trainer, HR guru or hotel fitness suite manager.

Skater

Where have you heard the rumours of taxing the gratuity? That would be THE game changer for me personally.

As has been alluded to, there is a lot of rumour wrt Pay and pensions, has anyone got anything a little more definitive? And, as with others, taxing my gratuity would be the final straw!

Not specially relevant, but interesting; the recent Cranwell graduation list had 14 pilots and 11 personnel officers of various types. Not a healthy ratio.

Have a son who is an officer in the Royal Navy: exactly the same situation applies.

Not surprised ATC features ... it was once the 2nd hardest promotion pyramid, and I doubt that's improved since my day! I know a lot of old colleagues slipped sideways into staff jobs at NATS in later years, but losing JOs is a bit of a new development. It's not an instant transition from Mil to Civ ATC, with totally different rules and practical aspects..

Manning have none of the levers that can make the differences required. They have tacitly admitted that. Everything these days requires tri-Service committee buy in. The USAF have given a huge retention incentive out to keep their people from walking out of the door. For that they had to go to Congress.

For this to be fixed it needs support all the way to the very top of Government and Treasury.

Good luck with that - we will have to be on our backsides, unable to function, for anything to be done. Until we get to that point (and we are not there yet) it won't get beyond OF5/4/3 level measures.

While I agree 100% with the main premise here that pilots ought to be looked after better, it has to be pointed out that some of the direct comparisons made with civilian salaries are wide of the mark. The figure of £80k was mentioned; few pilots earn that much for a good many years, and probably not at all in the turboprop world. Indeed if your steed has propellers you may earn less than the guy searching your bag to start with!

Interesting post from Concernedpilot, however, pay is not hidden or secret and the pension is not confidential. You knew what it was when you joined and barring the recent pay scale change and AFPS15, neither of which turned anyone from a Lord to a pauper, is what you knew you were signing up for.

If money is what drives you above all else then why did you sign up?

Stuff, fine if you are dead set on an RAF career. But when an RAF ME pilot (gratis ALTP perhaps, courtesy of a Voyager conversion) can walk into a RHS 777/787/A380/744 on near £70G it's Retention problem.

Is the issue retention as opposed to fairness? Both points have been well made; its worth pointing out that the civilian pilots with which comparison is being made have had to pay the full cost of their training. Repaying that makes quite a dent in a junior FO salary. If the focus is retention, what's wrong or unfair with an explicit training bond for the cost of that training set against an agreed number of years service?

Stuff,

Yes I knew what I would get paid when I joined,what my pension would be and how long I would need to serve to get it, and also what allowances I would get. I also had an idea of what the job market was like outside the RAF.

All of the above have changed.

New pay scales. AFPS 15. I now have to serve 20 years to get what I was told on joining I would get after 18. (Balpa would be striking if this was an airline!) allowances cut. Pay freeze followed by 1% pay "rise". To top it off, airlines are
Recruiting heavily, more so than when I joined, so when I'm in a position to leave, if nothing changes drastically to keep me in, what does the RAF think I'm going to do?!

The RAF changed the goalposts that were in place when I joined.

It's not rocket science.

[quotewhy are Pilots paid what Adminers are paid][/quote]

They're not. Pilots get great wadges of flying pay to add to their ranked salary!

MPN11:-
I would say that much the same applies for pilots. However, I tread warily into this debate as some of the flak flying around on the PVR thread was against those who, like me, left the RAF many years ago. Some things don't change though. I remember the culture shock of entering civvie street. You were on your own, sink or swim. Yet by contrast some ex-military pilots seemed to find it difficult to mould themselves into the concept of crew co-operation and information exchange that civil airlines demand.

I was called to MOD for interview having applied for a PVR. I had a dread that I would emerge from it on some punishment ground tour "pour encourager les autres". It turned out to be my ex boss, now a P2 Groupie dealing with Wg Cdrs and above. He wanted to know if I (a mere JO) was under some cloud or other. "No Sir, but I have come to realise that whereas your first love is the Air Force, mine is flying. I have come to the point where they are now incompatible". To cut this rambling story short, he said he'd see that my PVR went through. I only tell it because he was an example of why it was so hard to tear myself away from the RAF. He and his ilk do not, cannot, exist in civilian life.

If all this might seem as a cautionary tale against taking the plunge, it is not. It is merely to make sure you know what it is you are plunging into. I went for short haul flying in the independent sector (bucket and spade brigade mainly). It wasn't so well paid as the long haul state owned sector (as it was then) but much more fun. I don't regret PVR'ing, and I'm glad of my choice of civilian employer.

Money is important, but job satisfaction is more so in my view, so get as much up to date info about the outside world as possible. Seniority is everything, so you don't want to waste it flitting from job to job where you are the proverbial square peg.

Just my thoughts. I'll shuffle off now in my bedroom slippers back to the fireside...

I left 18 months ago, with just one month's worth of "career average" on top of my APS75 pension, and, glad to say, commuted tax free gratuity. I still pine for the things I miss; operational flying, the crewroom banter and the sense of belonging. But. The RAF, IMHO, has become a very two tier employer. There are those that rise seamlessly through the ranks, where mistakes are swept under the carpet and forgiven. They cannot rationalise why anyone should leave, and cite their own rise as evidence that the system is faultless. These individuals cannot understand the other RAF where trivia, micro-management and risk aversion are increasingly the norm. I think the point is that, yes, you understand the Ts and Cs when you join and I was grateful to be given the choice over APS75/APS05. Since then the "choice" seems to have disappeared. No choice over the endless erosion of perks, the mindless trivia over travel claims and, most importantly, absolutely no choice in an imposed fundamental change of conditions with the new pensions. Those at the top already have banked substantial pension provision and couldn't give a toss, those fresh faced joiners will know no different (and it will be very interesting to see how many of this cohort serve till 40 and IPP) - yet again it is the "squeezed middle" that suffers. Their only choice is to head for the door. Unfortunately for the RAF this is where the leaders of tomorrow are formed and where the SQEP to assure everything from Operational output to Airworthiness resides. Hack them off and watch the best of them leave at your future peril........

Evalu8ter..........spot on.............

Agreed. Spot on.

Isn't making you head for the door the master plan?

Lets look at the changes so far:

Final Salary vs Career Average. Always going to be a loser on career average especially if you take into account 6 months at Cranwell on New Entrant Rate of Pay which is currently around £14,000. God forbid you should be re-coursed or worse still end up on medical holding flight for any length of time. 6 months of £14k is going to seriously dent the final average whichever way you look at it.

Seniority for degrees. When I joined (and if my maths is right, Evalu8tor must have joined at about the same time) you got credit for your degree back in the form of a jump in Fg Off seniority. You even got an extra year just for being aircrew. My cadetship + 4 years seniority for my degree + 1 year for being aircrew made me a Flt Lt (with corresponding jump in wages) before I knew what I was doing. All this is now gone.

Flying Pay. Time used to start ticking when you got your wings. Now you need to be post OCU. Memory is hazy but I'm pretty sure I was on initial rate all through Valley and must have been knocking on the door of Middle rate when I reached the OCU (those were some long holds!).

Initial commission. PCs were the norm (16/38) with a few SSCs scattered about. Now SSC seems to be the default and you have to be 'selected' to swap to a pension earning commission later on.

All of the above make it much easier (and cheaper) to attract you straight from school, get 12 years out of you then let you go.

The OP claims £16M training cost to the end of OCU. I think that's way over the mark, £4-5M seems closer to a believable number and even than that is arrived at by adding up the cost of everything and diving by the number of graduates.

A better question would be, given that the equipment and bases are already in place, how much extra would it cost to train 1 extra pilot? If this figure is significantly less than the cost to retain the experienced guy past 40 for a 'full career' then you can see why this direction of travel has been taken.

I'm not saying I agree with it but it seems clear to me that those on here pining for the RAF to do more to retain them are barking up the wrong tree. Either you will be happy in the RAF and stay anyway or you'll be looking for greater remuneration and leave at 12 year point under the new system. This, I think, is what manpower plans want.

Chugalug, I'm pretty sure that our old boss is still on the perch! A gentleman!

The world has changed enormously since i joined the RAF in 1964. I even have been a civilian for 13 years; doesn't time fly. However, I left with two years to run because I saw the way everything was going. When I joined, flying was paramount and I had no idea how much I got paid. It was not an issue. I was paid sufficient to keep me in beer and to run a Triumph Spitfire. Everything else in my life was provided for; free food, batting, cheap booze, but above all, heaps of flying. My first tour was on a sunny island in the Med which housed 7 Squadrons. Fun we had in spades, pilots ran the Air Force and accountants was just a word in the dictionary. Now where is that jet for the weekend, multiple overseas postings and a support mechanism designed to do just that; support the flying task?

Stuff,
Sounds about right! I got Flt Lt and Initial Rate Flying Pay on BFTS just before FJ LIN thanks to a degree and a hold and then JEFTS (which I was offered to fill a slot and only took as it started the flying pay clock earlier....). I think you're correct in your assumption that the RAF now wishes to pick and choose those that stay for a full career and use SSCs plus FTRS to fill the gaps. One only hopes that they don't just select the 'chisellers' for PCs or things could get very bad very quickly when risk averse group think really takes hold......

On Saturday I will step onto an RAF station for the first time for 23 years. I wonder how different it will seem from what I remember.

Back in the mid 80's, I remember that FJ pilots needed to be second tourists to be pretty useful in role. Sharp second or third tourists would normally provide the QWI raw material and become really useful in their subsequent tour after qualifying. So what? Well, the QWI's were often also promotion fodder, moved up the ladder fast, and always in short supply. Consequently, overall standards of performance in the air by a Squadron, relied heavily upon the older, non-thrusting but experienced dudes. I may be wrong but, if cost is going to cull a greater percentage at around 35 yo, I can only see a lower future level of experience and ability!:ooh:

OAP

OAP ... no argument with that perspective. :ok:

I had related issues in ATC, albeit in the other direction, when trying to choose those to be trained to be Watch Supervisors. The old and bold NFI flt lt, just doing his time for pension, or the thrusting but relatively inexperienced fg off? The fg off usually won the day.

MPN11
 

One of the latter was my last watch manager at Heathrow before my early retirement!

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Before leaving around 13 years ago, my Master's thesis was on RAF FJ pilot retention. After a fair bit of research, a pattern emerged that most pilots were hacked-off by their early thirties and left as soon as possible after that point. (An obvious exception were the hard-core career guys who loved the service truly, madly, deeply.) This correlated broadly with when family commitments were ramping up: concerns about time away from small children both day-to-day as well as on the many routine deployments, and more concerns about money generally. At this age a more mature assessment of the likely benefits of the civil sector seemed to come into play. Compare this to the first-tourist who would probably take minimum wage and/or beer money for the pleasure of throwing one of HM's pointy jets around.

I think, therefore, most decisions to leave are taken when the declining ‘fun’ line crosses the rising ‘need for more money’ line on the graph. If the RAF/MoD/Treasury could delay when the money issue becomes critical, I suspect many individuals would stay a bit longer. Even one extra productive tour per pilot would result in a massive cost reduction through reduced numbers in the training system. Only a small element of that saving would be needed to pay for a more substantial retention package for those with the highest replacement cost.

TBW
I think, with my experience and the benefit of hindsight, that retention is far more complicated than just a fun/pay balance for most. Prospects for continued engagement into full career and/or promotion were always important, coupled with options for a civvi change-over if you needed to. Whatever, the plan now seems to be: get them in for as short-as-poss to avoid paying much or building a pension and, it'll be fine, Honest! :uhoh:

OAP

OAP,don`t forget,they won`t get a LSGCM when they leave then......more savings...

Tom Bell-Weed Your 'decreasing fun line' resonates, looking back at my RAF life back in the late 70s/early 80s. I'd been lucky to stumble on what might be called a 'career ladder', but it was grindingly slow (partly due to demographic bulges). But as the fun faded away (partly due to increased maturity) the 'money' graph started to look brighter.

And so another BOF was born ;)

Yes,...part and parcel, IMO.:sad:

OAP

Pretty sure that the SF Spec pay is only for those in the ranks. Ruperts didn't qualify back in the day.

It did p*ss off our Regimental Pay Staff Sgt that I earned more than him as a TA Corporal. I explained if he'd like to do Selection, para course plus a few other bits and bobs ( and an annual CFT) he too could be on my pay band. He declined. :ok:

Then and Now
 

I must be a contemporary of Sharpend. Joined Jan 64 stayed to 38/16 than ran away to an airline, BMI, who were happy o take me because I had flown the Viscount in the RAF

As it happens I recently visited an RAF base with a civi group. What struck me most was that all those I met considered the service as a job, with much talk of the various Ts and Cs and the uncertainty they faced over pensions, pay scales, and postings. The task seemed nothing more than than part of the problem

I saw no pleasure in life, the service, messes or their relationship with each other, there was no sign of joint pleasure in the task or respect. Seniors were routinely and openly described with contempt.

I asked one small group what they would do if they saw a friend in deep personal trouble in need of management support, they replied keep quiet.

I am am deeply troubled that the service I loved for all those years and was so good to me has been reduced to just another job

Tinribs
I do not think the RAF should be just "another job" but, the Politicians have bamboozled VSOs over the last 25 years to do, just that! Pity.:uhoh:

OAP

Tinribs.

I have two points to throw back at you.

Firstly one small group of people at one base can't necessarily be considered representative of the entire RAF.

Secondly, if you'd joined the RAF in 1920 and walked into your future crewroom in 1982 and asked the same questions do you think that, maybe, you would have struggled to identify with the youngsters if not in the same way you describe but certainly on many levels.

I know I'm always banging on about the same thing on every thread but my point is always the same. Times, and people, change.

It's not necessarily wrong. It's just different.

Retreating back behind my rose tinted spectacles now.

BV

I left the RAF in 1989 and the rot was setting in even back then. Messes seemed to be run more and more for the convenience of the staff rather than mess members.
So called H24 stations offered sweet FA to those working weekends or late and meal times got earlier so that staff could get home because stewards, cooks etc were increasingly civilians and had to be paid over-time for dining-in nights, and other official mess functions.
Batting services became virtually non-existent and most of the perks of bothering to get a commission went out the door for JO's and for SO's things were just as bad!
At Wattisham in c 1984 the staish, T*** P**** had about 15 feet cut off the end of his garden to reduce the area so that it was below the cut off area to qualify him to have a gardener or an allowance for one. How cynical a ploy is that!
Jumping ship was a fairly simple step with "Options for Change" being the final shove.

MB

I had a " crisis of conscience" about PVR whilst on a very challenging, fulfilling and lucrative secondment overseas, the organisation of which offered me further promotion. My choice was to return to the RAF or jump ship.
Over a couple of bottles of wine I took a visiting VSO into my confidence as to my dilemma.
His response :
"Look, the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life."
Which I did.

Haraka:-
Says a lot about that VSO's personal investment in the Royal Air Force, and in stark contrast to my ex-boss (a mere Gp Capt) who despite ensuring my own PVR went through, nonetheless dedicated his life to the RAF rather than to his own personal ambition. I don't blame you for taking exactly the same course that I did. I do however find the style of advice given you as very telling, and perhaps typical of the RAF High Command's culture in general.