Military Aircrew and Heart Murmur
 

Good afternoon all,

Whilst having a Armed Forces med today with my local AFCO AME; it was noticed that I have a audible Heart Murmur.
I was obviously shocked (and slightly disappointed and upset) upon hearing this news and I was made TMU until further investigations are made.

I appreciate that some may not be medically qualified to answer (and I am in the process of having ECG's and Echocardiagram done and my AFCO has been informed) what are the chances that all being well and nothing found to be sinister that I will be able to continue with a career in Mil Av.

Overall; I'm glad this has been discovered but as mentioned - I'm gutted and disappointed - just hoping it doesn't hamper my application or future.

Best regards.

NDW.

If everything is found to be normal then all is well. If you do indeed have a heart murmur then, based on the rules from when I went through OASC in 1999, I'm afraid the news is not good.

Bear in mind I'm not a doctor and I can't swear that my information is bang up to date but you should be prepared for either eventuality.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings and I hope that everything turns out fine. If you are suitable in all other areas and then miss out because of a hitherto unknown medical complaint it is a bitter pill to swallow.

All the best and others may be able to amplify my points further.

BV

I am not a doctor or military pilot but I have lived with a heart murmur for many years. My doctor has assured me that it has no medical consequences whatsoever. It has never been an issue in Class 2 medicals for my PPL and I am still capable of passing that at 76. That, of course, may not be relevant for the stricter requirements for the military.

When it comes to travel insurance, most companies exclude it but my doctor assures me that he would support my claim if any company refused to pay out for any other problems associated with the heart e.g. heart attack.

Best of luck.

p1

My medical advisor asks what level of sustained activity you have maintained, for instance arduous activity like climbing with a Bergan. Can you hear your heart thumping?

However I was assessed with a myocardial infarction, rushed to hospital, and walked out 30 minutes later; that was 30 years ago.

A doctor is not always right; wait for the second opinion.

VP.

As I quite clearly said and you directly quoted. I was saying how it was in '99 and also said it may not be correct now. That's not wrong. Several people who went through selection at the time were denied entry based on heart murmurs. If things have changed and a second opinion can help then that's excellent news.

Let's all hope for a positive outcome.

BV

VigilantPilot time for a new screen name surely? :}

Many years ago, I was having a routine ECG as part of the medical, when it picked up an abnormality. I was thinking the worst, when the nurse opened the door and said "Ethel, turn the Hoover off a minute". All returned to normal. Hope the second opinion shows all is OK. Good luck.

We agree, you said it. If a doctor is always right then no need for a specialist opinion.

NDW
 

I was found to have a heart murmur and after a visit to a very nice Gp Capt Cardiologist at Peterborough Hospital, was told after an ECG that it was "innocent", very common, and to forget all about it. So the chances are that you will be fine. Good luck.

No guarantees this will be the case for you, hope so, but on one PME, Junior doc heard a "murmur" and made arrangements for a scan at Peterborough. That's it thought I, end of flying career or worse as no one discussed the possibilities with me. Anyway, scan and follow up with specialist diagnosed JMO's hearing at fault and during subsequent appointment with SMO, he said it was quite common to falsely diagnose "murmurs".

Fingers crossed for you NDW.

VP.

You're right. I'm wrong. Bored now.

BV

Pointless thread is pointless.

No one on here will have the answer unless they can see the OPs medical records and the results of the tests.:}

I had a heart murmur detected during my annual aircrew medical one year, cue downgrade in med cat and a few months waiting for an echocardiogram at Haslar etc. before everything was confirmed as being nothing to worry about and getting my med cat back.
Went for my CAA Class 1 medical, had the usual checks including an electrocradiogram, Doc looked at the trace for 30 seconds, said 'that's nothing to worry about' and signed me off.

This may sound frivolous, but it isn't meant that way.

Our 'rescue cat' from the local Animals' Shelter has a heart murmur. Over the last 5-6 years she has bounded around happily, and it seems her murmur is actually diminishing. She's certainly not called "Storm" for no reason - 100% is her standard mode of operation.

The problem will be the Doc who does the final assessment. Good luck!

MPN11 - ditto my 9 year old dog. However, I think local vet and specialist at La Rochelle are in cahoots, and want us to take him for echocardiograph every 6 mths, at €160 a pop. I think we will wait until he slows down a bit!

BV, you're definitely wrong! Me - OASC 1998, heart murmur discovered by locum who told me there and then it was curtains for my flying ambitions, panic, allowed to complete part 2 of selection anyway, summoned by Gp Capt OASC before leaving for instant decision that I would be offered a pilot slot pending outcome of further medicals, referred to Peterborough, six weeks' anxious waiting (made considerably less stressful by thoughtful action of aforementioned gp capt), declared benign on the spot by cardiologist, many happy years of fast jet flying. Annual medicals have fallen fairly evenly into three categories - 1) doc has read the notes and mentions the murmur before examination; 2) doc surprised by hearing the murmur and referred by me to the notes; 3) doc doesn't mention it at all. Whether the latter meant they didn't hear it, or had read the notes and didn't mention it, I wouldn't know! But the bottom line is that it was not, and is not, a definite end to hopes of a military flying career until it has been assessed as such by a cardiologist.

While on the subject of heart complaints, there was an episode a few years ago at a remote northern station during which, over the course of several months, a not insignificant number of aircrew were grounded and sent for cardiological assessment after their routine ECGs uncovered the development of a potentially terminal (for flying, at any rate) heart condition. Each missed out on several weeks' flying before receiving a clean bill of health. No-one at the unnamed station seemed to think this at all odd. The cardiologist, however, started to wonder why he was seeing so many patients referred with this unusual condition who then presented with no symptoms whatsoever. On looking at the records of these individuals, he realised that they had all come from the same unnamed station, and on further investigation he realised that this one station had, in a few months, already referred more cases of the condition from within a previously well-screened group of aircrew than would be expected in one year in the entire UK population. A phone call to the SMO followed, and it was soon established that the station's ECG machine had been experiencing an insidious intermittent fault for months without (apparently) ever arousing suspicion among the medical staff. Whether or not this was due to the ineptitude of one particular nurse in using it was never revealed. Again the takeaway is not to put much stock in a GP's assessment of matters cardiological.

ES, maybe they had served in Lincolnshire previously. In my case it was so severe I was seen within the week.

All;

Thank you very much for your responses and it has brought me some hope.

I'm certainly going to persevere and get a 2nd opinion and a visit to the Cardiologist. I'm contemplating going private in order hopefully cut a significant portion of the potential eight month delay which was initially briefed to me by the AME.

I'll keep you all informed.

Again, thank you for your kind comments.

Kindest regards,

NDW

VP;

Absolutely; the sooner that I can get what needs to be investigated, well investigated - the better.

Thanks for your comment.

Somebody in recruiting - please give Nathan a job. He's been trying to get in as a WSOp for about 7 (seven) years and I think he deserves it just for his bloody-minded persistence!!

A bit off topic - I had a (benign!) heart murmur a couple of years ago. Don't know if it was one of those MVP things - not heard that phrase and I'm definitely not lean/tall/thin either - but it turns out the flow was so strong and high (although BP NOT high) that it was spilling over one of the valves, which was making the noise.

Had a scan - queueing up along with a load of preggie ladies - and actually saw my heart working in real time - including seeing the "overspill" causing the murmur.

One of the most miraculous things I've ever seen............... :)

NDW,
After passing all medicals with flying colours, I was entered into the RAF for pilot training in 1970. On my second aircrew medical, the Group Captain medic detected a heart murmur. I was sent to hospital for check-ups egg etc. The heart specialist said who was the numpty who sent you here? You have a narrow rib cage and the heart is near to it, so it sounds louder.
I subsequently served over 30 years as a fast jet pilot.
Hope all turns out well for you.
M2N

Hi,

have been flying for 26 years mil and civi, an AME heard a murmur 15 years ago and sent me for a scan - no problems, a slight regurgitation around a valve, had probably always been there. He said if he listened to all the hearts on the high street, around 20% would have some sort of murmur. Now an airline captain and still murmurring away!! Best of luck

Kind comments
 

All,

Thank you very much for your kind comments, genuinely means a great deal.

The disappointment stage has now since passed and now I'm into the perseverance and determination stage. This will (hopefully) only be a minor setback and I'm determined to ensure I can continue, fit and well, with my application in the soonest.

CamelSpyyder;

Thanks for your comment, if only it were that easy ey!! :ok:

Kindest regards.

Best of luck...

Thanks Octane.

I'll keep everyone updated - hopefully it will provide some information for anyone else going through the recruitment stages who may be in a similar situation.

Best regards,

NDW

Not wishing to spoil anyone's party but....................

I had a 'heart murmur' detected during an RAF medical at Biggin Hill and unfortunately it meant that I could never fly as anything other than as a PPL. The RAF offered me a cadetship in Engineering but being just a tad disappointed at not being able to become a pilot I thought that I could not handle being so close to my chosen career without being able to do it.
I had undertaken two previous medicals at Biggin and passed both. The diagnosis was that I had had a mild case of rheumatic between the 2nd and 3rd medicals which damaged my heart.
It was a wrong diagnosis as a few years later when ultrasound imaging became available I was examined by a Harley St cardiologist ( Oil company medical) who told me that I had a bicuspid aortic valve (and still have !) and I was born with it. He also said that whoever picked this up was having a good day with a warm stethoscope.

The good news is that the original (wrong) diagnosis happened in 1969 and would unlikely happen today as ultrasound and MRI scans can clearly identify my problem today. In my case the outcome would likely have been the same. "No career in flying for you my son"

The good news is that I was told that I would probably need an aortic valve replacement by the age of 50, I am now 64 and the valve is holding up well, I have ultrasound scans every couple of years and to date no changes.

Hope it turns out better for you NDW.

So despite being told repeatedly in this thread that I was wrong it turns out that a heart murmur is sadly not always benign.

From the outset I have tried to highlight that the news is not always positive. Thankfully though it might be. Once again NDW I wish you all the best and I hope your news is good.

BV (not feeling smug just don't like to be told I'm wrong without categorical proof!)

Smeagol and BV,

Thank you both for your comments. I'm remaining optimistic, however I also have to accept that it may not go my way. I'm preparing (but hopefully won't need) for the latter, but I have everything crossed.

Again, thank you all for your kind and encouraging words - I'll keep you all updated.

Kindest regards,

NDW

Whatever tests, private or NHS, you have done, you can usually get a copy of the tape/trace/disk to take away with you. Probably for a small fee - and best to request in advance. So even if you don't understand it, you've got a copy to show a future expert opinion.
Good luck. LFH

After having my stents nailed in last year etc I was given a printout to carry with me as I have an inverted T wave in my rhythm, that way if I ever have to come in again I am supposed to hand it to the Ambulance bods so they know what is what.

NDW,

I had a heart murmur picked up too when I did oasc in 2006. Sent off to a specialist, who said it was benign.

In still an RAF pilot. The heart murmur still gets picked up on 50% ish of my PMEs.

Best of luck!

P_P,

Thanks for your reply. Out of interest, was your application significantly delayed by this result?

I'm waiting it out and hoping that the news will be good on Tuesday.

Best regards to all,

NDW

Fingers crossed for you, NDW :ok: :cool:

Ever thought of just having your heart removed and cracking on? You won't need it when you get in (as your perseverance at least suggests) - nobody who's done well in the military that I know of ever had a heart anyway :E

Sorry, couldn't resist, but you'll get plenty of banter and wholly inappropriate humour on the other side of selection anyway! :ok:

MPN11, Many thanks.


I'd expect nothing less :E:E - as one of the RM's ethos say 'smile in the face of adversity' :ok:

Good morning all,

Well after a few administrative issues this morning at my GP; I'm now having my ECG done this afternoon, where as it should have been done this AM.

The GP listened and he too said he could hear a heart murmur, thankfully I'm able to get the ECG this afternoon as I'm getting fairly anxious about the whole situation (something unfortunately I tend to have when it comes to Medicals/GP visits/Hosp visits etc) - must be a case of good ol' white coat syndrome!

Will report back this PM,

Regards,

NDW

ECG
 

Afternoon all,

Well - I've just come back from my ECG with not the best news - however awaiting a call from the Doc ref my results.

An abnormality was found, but what it is, is still very much a guessing game, my heart rate was around 96-100 (due to anxiety).

So, presuming next stage will be to have an Echo and to visit the Cardio chap!

Best regards,

NDW

Fingers crossed for you mate :)

This is only loosely relevant, because it concerns pilots having minor medical complaints, not medical problems picked-up in a medical inspection.

My father, an RAF pilot in the 1930s to 1960s, always advised his fellow pilots to avoid going to the MO over minor medical complaints. He belly-landed a Vampire and a few months later went to the MO complaining of stomach pain when flying at altitude. The medics suspected an ulcer and did all possible checks, but came up with no explanation for his pain. The incident caused him to be medically down-graded, resulting in him being barred from flying overseas.

He subsequently received a tip-off from a WAAF he knew at the MoD that when it his name came up at promotion boards, he would be passed-over, the question being voiced 'Is he better yet?' I think there may have been some suspicion that he was funking it, having possibly 'lost his nerve' after his Vampire forced landing. Eventually he managed to persuade the medics to restore his medical grading, on the grounds that the pains no longer troubled him and concern about his frozen promotion was doing him no good at all. However, although he got his bill of health, the damage had by then been done... he was no longer in the promotional 'A' stream.

Thus his advice was to steer clear of the MO and go private for minor medical problems. With modern medical knowledge, it seems likely that his stomach pains were probably due to a gut-bloating bug like H-pylori, but of course, this was unheard-of in those days. He retired as a Wg Cdr, but cites this incident as being one of several factors that held him back from gaining higher promotion.