Cameron attacks race bias
 

Right - no stupid comments please!

I see in the BBC News Cameron attacks race bias in courts and universities - BBC News that DC has 'warned the police, the courts and the armed forces they also had to act' on the issue, noting that 'there are no black generals in the UK armed forces'.

Personally, I always thought that people were promoted in the UK Armed Forces purely on merit.....:hmm:

This strikes me as a bit like blaming universities for taking too many pupils from independent schools. It's not the fault of the universities, or the armed forces, that not enough highly educated and aspirational black young people either exist, or apply to them. It goes much further back, into the education system.

Of course, if there were concrete evidence that black personnel were discriminated against for promotion that would be another thing. But I very much doubt it, not in the last 20 years at least. Before that, perhaps.

Never mind, in a few years time the whinge will be regarding the scarcity of "Generals, racial minority, female, lesbian, handicapped". All at the same time, of course.

Does your comment really stand up, Beagle? I'm no longer serving (you too?) but I ask because I never met a single black officer in all the time I was, overseas Officer Cadets excepted. Not one. Likewise there was not a single female pilot/nav/rockape/aircrew of any kind except stewardess or nurse. So while I'm neutral on the rights of what Mr Cameron said, I'm prepared to believe there's a case to answer.

Surely the solution then is conscription for black & minority males & females (50% of each) with a moratorium on Caucasians until the ratio exactly matches that of the national ethnic makeup.......?

It's not possible to make people join otherwise. The armed forces today bend over backwards to make themselves inclusive - ethnicity, sexual orientation, TG, it's open to all, we're even on Stonewall's list of gay friendly employers, but there's only so much we can do without resorting to compulsion (BTW I was only jesting in the first para......)

ShotOne: T**v Ed***ds was flying Jags from around 1990 - in his case he'd joined he Regt but not finished the JROC due to losing most of his toes as the instructors had made him stand in a flooded trench for so long to try & break him rather than have 'a n****r in the RAF Regt'. He couldn't continue in his chosen branch & the RAF offered him his choice to make up for the brutal fashion in which he'd been treated - he chose pilot, & a nicer chap you couldn't hope to meet. Hard to believe thant kind of stuff went on but I guess its legacy is one of the reasons why the numbers are so low.

There was H***y J***son on C130s too, so a few about although not many.

Shot one, first, it is also black, Asian, minority and ethnic I think.

Knew a black helicopter pilot at Tengah over 40 years ago. An Asian or Spanish (Lopez) engineering officer, same time. Indians too.

A BEagle said, in most cases it depends on quality and merit.

I know they quotes percentages with RN and. RAF around 2-3%, but what is the percentage in UK? More relevant what is the percentage from traditional recruiting areas?

If the percentage of suitable app!licants presentinbv at the AFCO is loiw then In-service figures will be low.

In our village we have some Indian s and Chinese in the restaurant trade, we have no 'free' BAMEs that would wish to be recruited. The whole ethnic population is an insignificant percentage.

The BBC is very much metro centric and only on TV do we see these ethnic minorities that IMHO are over represented. At least we have a female MP.

ShotOne, yours must have been rather a different world to mine as I knew several other-than-white aircrew officers in my time, although they were rather in the minority in terms of number.

One chap (of Jamaican background) was struggling a bit when learning to fly formation in the Gnat at Valley (didn't we all?), but went on a trip with the squadron boss (of Asian descent). We had weird formation call-signs back then, such as 'Milvus', 'Outward'...and 'Sambar' - so the two of them set off giggling like schoolgirls at ATC's reaction to their chosen call-sign.... It seems that the boss had decided on 'Sambo' :ooh: rather than 'Sambar', which broke the ice; the previously struggling student relaxed and subsequently flew an excellent trip!

I was lucky enough to go through Brawdy with him and his sense of humour; he later went on to have a very good FJ career.

Served with a guy in Germany who was subjected to some of the most outrageously overt racism I'd ever encountered, literally bullied out of the Air Corps. I begged him to report it, but he just RTU'd and that was that. Bloody shame. It happens, be in no doubt.

Harry Whittle on 33 springs to mind. I know of a single RSM- don't recall the regiment.

CG

BEagle wrote:

Doesn't this gentleman count?

Rear-Admiral Amjad_Hussain CB RN

I also feel that the OH is an issue too. Ethnic wives in a white club, or lack of ethnic females (males) in the base area.

My English successor at a Jock station tried to get out of the job, his third at that station, as his chances of meeting an English girl were vanishingly small. He made WG CDR, don't know if he got the biurd though.

Oh Stacker, don't spoil a good thread with facts. Anyway he is not a general.

Anyway, too succeed in the Army I thought you needed the right name too.

Shot One

When did you leave? The first operational RAF female pilot was in 1990....

The RAF Regt remains, as far as I know, the only regular outfit to be 'male only' (not sure about the Reserve / Aux units) - listened to a wonderful presentation from a Rock Officer on why that should remain so. The look on the (female) course directors face during some of the more detailed explanation was a joy to behold!

Wrath, my daughter was in 2503 about 15 years ago. There wasvcan issue on weapons but she still qualified on GPMG, mortar and grenades. On an exercise in USA she was a section commander of a joint section. For tuppence she would have shot a couple of spams (different story).

A RAFC Cranwell IOT Engineer officer contemporary of mine (1976) - at the time of his promotion to air commodore in 2000 at age 47 - became the highest ranking black officer ever to serve in the UK Armed Forces.

You couldn't meet a nicer, more polite, modest, talented officer who was awarded the Sword of Honour for the year - most of us saw him as the frontrunner for the award early on. It is worth remembering that there were 3 x 16-week entries each with up to 120 cadets a year in those days.

His appointments included Phantom SEngO, Phantom OC Eng & Supply Wg, Head of The RAF Presentation Team and Director of Specialist Ground Training at RAFC Cranwell.

His bio appears in 100 Great Black Britons which has the following entry:

Asked about the issue of being black in the UK Armed Forces, his response was: "I certainly encountered no barriers to joining. And I have reflected back over the period I have been in the Service on whether I have encountered discrimination and can honestly say I cannot identify any occasion when I thought this might have been a case in point. I try to educate people by simply being who I am".

Says it all really - opportunities on merit have been there for at least 40 years for those that deserve it.

I'm reminded of General Colin Powell who was once being interviewed by a British journalist. The former four star general is the son of an immigrant who came to the USA from Jamaica. He was asked what he thought he might have been had his parents moved to the UK, instead of the US. "Probably a warrant officer in the British Army" came the reply.

Interesting to note that of the (very few) examples put forward to contradict my post, several have suffered extreme and shocking discrimination, in one case to the point of actual bodily harm. Beagle: call sign "Sambo"?? I rest my case.

Why do I think DC actually is alluding to no senior Muslim officers . . .

I hope the comment stays, but suspect it won't.

It seems we must be seen to bend over backwards to accommodate them everywhere. Why should the Armed Forces be any different?

R****t P***t flew F4s.

Dez D*****e ended up as Staish at Wittering retiring as an Air Commodore in 2010 (and a nicer man and better instructor you'd likely never meet).

Dez would turn finls in the JP with a stude and call: "Finals, 3 Greens, 1 Black, 1 White."

ShatOne, can you actually read? If so, try reading my post more carefully, even if that does require you to move your lips at the same time...:rolleyes:

It was the fact that they were both 'other than white' and were giggling at the response they were receiving from ATC with their distinctly non-PC choice of call-sign which broke the ice....

Stacker your Admiral retired in 2012, there are no current black VSOs as far as I'm aware? The point the PM is making is not that we shouldn't promote on merit it's rather that ethnic minorities are deterred from joining because we are institutionally racist. I'm not convinced that as individuals there are many serving racists but as an organisation?

I would also add that the timing of this smacks of distraction politics. Make some controversial statement targeting some high profile British instutions just as he's in difficult negotiations with the EU! Got to love politicians!

I suspect DC is wanting to see a more 'inclusive/representative' Mil Service Population (to mirror our wider society) which is probably driven by the following headline stats published by the MOD ...

More detailed MOD stats ...

See Page 6.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...r15_update.pdf

See Pages 6 & 7

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ctober15-a.pdf

At a simple level ... Joining the UK Armed Services still doesn't seem to be an attractive proposition (for whatever reason) for a majority of BAME UK citizens ...

It's not surprising therefore that BAME VSO's are a rarity.

PS. I suspect the above overall 7% (2.3% for Officers) is higher than it was say 20 years ago ?

I wonder if it is a coincidence that this has sprung up very recently after the race row surrounding the Academy Awards?

Being male, Caucasian and of average appearance and build I find it hard to see the argument through the eyes of others. My suspicion is that, if I were from a minority group, I would be extremely angry about the fact that if I should achieve something noteworthy I would be viewed by many as just fulfilling a quota.

Positive discrimination, if that is what the PM is encouraging, can be just as damaging as the other kind.

I am a staunch believer in the policy of 'best person for the job'. I do not believe the RAF is in any way racist/sexist/(insert other)ist and that people are and should be selected on merit.

Maybe I'm an idealist or maybe it's because I have never experienced racism but I just wish we could recruit the best and reward the best accordingly.

BV:O

At RAF Worksop in the mid-1950's there was, IIRC, a WingCo (Flying) who was Scots/Malayan (Malaysian?), a good ethnic mix.

I really don't think that we should get too worked up about what the PM has said about this subject, or indeed about any other. He is a verbal conjurer and is professional enough to know that if you want to distract people away from subject A, then you say something provocative about subject B.

We would do better to concern ourselves with subject A, just as he should concern himself with the bunch of politically motivated men and women who are waiting and watching for the opportunity to take his crown.

BTW, don't mention bunch, I just did but I think I've got away with it...

I think I must have been in a different Air Force? The one I have experienced for nearly 40 years has a hard dog-eat-dog core. :uhoh:

OAP

Are you really the same person, Beagle, who delivered me a pious lecture on "netiquette" some time back?? What a pointlessly rude post. if you really believe the use of the term "sambo" is evidence of lack of discrimination, frankly it's a waste of key-strokes discussing the issue with you.

Don't look inward guys!

Pass the question back to Camoron.. How many black Prime Ministers have we had?

Hmmm, Oh dear! None so far! :rolleyes:

Beagle I fear you are wasting your breath, but "shat" has a certain charm.

DC must have forgotten about the black Stn Cdr he met last autumn then. A very bright, charming and thoroughly capable chap I first met years ago as a holding officer. Didn't need political quotas to get his station.

And then there was the Asian, I believe Gp Capt, now left for academia/think tanks, but he made a name for himself as a real thinker on COIN issues. Don't think he needed quotas either.

Then again, I don't suppose the politicians, that bastion of ethic diversity, will be happy until Dianne Abbot is CDS; even then they'd probably find fault with the appointment.

ethic diversity is right, even if Freudian or spoolchicker.

I always look on the likes of this as people are promoted on merit, not on colour, and to do so simply degrades the system.


Served with quite a few people who were none Caucasian and they were all great, Sengo and Jengo in Germany were both Indian, I felt for the Jengo though as his religion prevented him from eating pork, which wasn't fun for him on exercise as the Hotlocks were invariable compo sausages etc, so he went without, which on a cold morning during a long exercise you needed something warm and tasty inside you.

One point perhaps to consider is that almost any VSO's now would have joined 25 years plus ago when the "ethnic minorities" were much smaller, so one wouldn't expect them now to match the current wider population percentages. Furthermore, there were then also third generation issues regarding obtaining some higher level clearances.
It is also ridiculous within the camaraderie of the military, where Scots, Welsh,Irish and others of recognisable ancestry are all fair game for stereotypical leg pulling, not to have that privilege extended across to others,who in turn can bounce back counter irreverent epithets. That is common in any close community and should not be (often deliberately) confused with racism.

I think Colin Powell's "What if " response could also perhaps be taken as a back -handed complement as to the quality of British Army Warrant Officers.

I'll second that, fantastic bloke :ok:

ShotOne, looks like you have... shot yourself in the foot. If you read carefully you will note that Beagle has stated that the callsign 'Sambo' was decided by two non-white pilots; racial discrimination? I think not.

In my 39 years in the RAF, I have known many black or female pilots. All of a very high caliber. Moreover, I had a very good relationship with my Asian navigator who called me 'white trash'. I'll not tell you what I called him. However, like those two pilots with the callsign 'Sambo' we too giggled. It was all great fun and was very anti political correctness.

So ShotOne, open your eyes. Pilots are picked on merit and not prejudice.

Front cover of Accountancy Age a few years back, Asian gp capt, most senior qualified accountant in the RAF. First met him when he was OC Accts at Valley in the 80s-great guy

I'm thinking more along the lines of what chugalug said, this is more a political exercise, perhaps not to distract anyone, but certainly an attempt to burnish his 'everyman' image. Being a tory will unfortunately risk an accusation of being a typical tory toff, will always suggest being happy to discriminate against all minority groups. So this'll be an attempt to prove otherwise before anyone even says anything more direct and specific. Not that anyone will necessarily. but it won't do any harm to publicly demonstrate his credentials like this.

FB:)

Ken Scott

Utter bolleaux. I was on the J-Course with T.E. We were all made to stand in freezing water filled trenches on a week long defence exercise, we all suffered 'trench foot' like symtoms to one degree or another. T.E had poor circulation that made him particularly vulnerable. I'm not defending the actions of the Regt and Medical staff during that exercise, they were appalling and had there not been Crown Immunity at that time they would have had their asses sued. BUT, this was NOTHING to do with racism. As others have said, T.E. was a top bloke and I'm very glad he had sucess after the severe problems the J-Course caused him.

Re callsigns - we had a West Indian captain when I was on tankers. On one exercise he was highly amused that the codename he had been allocated (entirely at random from 1 Group) was "Spade".

To have promote minority groups to SO level they have to be officers - and that's the real problem - there are a significant number of non-white OR's but how many join the Officer Corps in any UK Service?

Not many is my guess - and it's probably because if you are from a minority and have a good education there are a lot more doors open to you in Civvy Street.

If the Services and the Govt are serious they need to get more minorities in to start with - then we will have some people who are good enough to rise to the very top

Interestingly for a lot of Black Americans the US services were perceived through the 50's onwards as much more of an Equal Opportunity Employer than Big Business so many more decently educated people joined up = more minority SO's by the 80's