Tornado ADV for sale
 

Makes me feel strangely old seeing an F2A for sale, remembering when they were new.

http://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?ID=1087984

Another candidate for RAF Leicestershire, at Bruntingthorpe! ;)

-RP

2.2M - but that would beyond VNE := (I tried, I REALLY did but did anyone get to 2.2?)

London Eye - so how close did you get, any draggy external stores, what altitude, were you wearing a white silk scarf etc etc :8

1.95M / 750KDAS for Wayne and I, on a jet collected from Warton.

Fonsini: Fifth amendment, pylons only (no acquisition mx), 30s and 40s and no white scarf!

Are your sure thats not MMO :)

I heard the 750Kt was exceeded, once.

I heard that during development they accidentally discovered that the ASI stopped reading at 825 KIAS.

PS Didn't KDAS only come in with Typhoon?

EAP

For the F3, I'd have to delve into my logbook but defo over M2 - seem to remember it was a clean jet (no pylons) and before they wound back the fuel control units. I think it was M2.15 having just filled up from the Texaco, but it's all so very long ago now.

As for IAS, excursions above 750kts were commonplace at low level - the jet was incredibly quick. In the Falklands I've been 870kts low level over the sea with 2 Skyflash and 2 Sidewinders and the jet wanted to go faster (we decided to stop there). Many went faster than that and I even heard that 999 was achieved (or above as the numbers don't get any bigger). The fins of the Skyflash used to buzz around 600kts and then stop above that.

F2s were slower than F3s - less thrust, less fuel and aerodynamically draggier!

By the way, here is a picture of Fg Off Sammy Seal doing 825kts+ (the rear cockpit ASI stopped at 825)...

http://s27.postimg.org/hoz90363n/image.jpg

That's not my knee, I hasten to add!

LJ

PS. Here is the same ASI reading zero (against the stops the other way!)

http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/images/...bAE/s-l225.jpg

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pskfqqqigp.jpg

Fastest I've ever been 760kts (no, never got to fly in Concorde:{)

Might not have been the fastest, but an F.3 in full burner at 100 ft over XXX FC courtesy of JG & PB was always impressive, apart from the having to pick up all the tools that pinged off the tool board each time they practised their routine :) Happy days.

On the subject of matters Tonka, this image has recently done the rounds with credits to Adrian Meredith who states:

Would a Tornado be able to intercept and stay with a M2.0 Concorde for 4 minutes?

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7...2+Concorde.jpg

That is just such a beautiful photograph of a stunning aeroplane (I know I am biased, but then I helped build two noses and visors, at Marshalls)

The photos of the F2 cockpit look quite bizarre. Looks like it has been stripped out and replaced with Typhoon displays. Was this F2 used Typhoon avionic trials?

http://www.barnstormers.com/listing_...php?id=1087984

As the linked ad says....

"Trials aircraft known as TIARA used for radar trials and avionics research / evaluation. Unique cockpit with MFD screens and prototype holographic HUD."

http://barnstormers.com/tmp_images/3...9594771ec1.jpg

The TIARA F2 (AT002?) cockpit was a Boscombe Down research project which had no direct relationship to the Typhoon cockpit programme. From the picture you can see the aspect ratios of the MFDs are different. I think the TIARA and Typhoon programmes ran in parallel during the late 90s. Responsible for the Typhoon cockpit design, Warton had gained a fair amount of MFD experience on the EAP ( :ok: ) in the 2nd half of the 80s.

EAP

How did the EAP perform compared to ADV and now Typhoon? Was it all metal construction or did it have composite wings, titanium canards like Typhoon?? Ta

I always wondered how Foxhunter (stage 2) stacked up against its American peers. We all know it was an embarrassment at first but worked well after the bugs were worked out.

FMICW, jknown at the time as F**k Me, It Can't Work. :\

870 is over 1000 Mph - I dont know why I bothered to convert, I cant comprehend what either number must have looked like at LL. :eek:

870 kts at low level wouldnt be the ideal time for a birdstrike either :ooh:. Especially with one of those rather stout Upland Geese - although they spent more time wandering around the Q shed than committing aviation.

Concorde used to be able to out run them during practice intercepts trials over the North Sea. ;)

Which is why we have fighter controllers ;)

TV, EAP had a CFC wing, foreplanes, front fuse, centre fuse and rear fuse. The fin was adapted from a Tornado one to save time and cost after German industry dropped out.

As it happens the CFC foreplane wasn't too successful because to meet its structural reqts, it was close to being solid carbon and therefore over target weight. This is why Typhoon today has a SPFDB Ti foreplane. (SPFDB Ti could have been a feasible option as the EAP's rear fuse keel was made this way) Such programmes are needed to find out about this sort of issue.

EAP

TV, sorry missed the performance part of your question. EAP's max pitch rate, roll rate and roll acceleration were all better than ADV but still behind Typhoon. Speed and normal acceleration were cut back a bit because of the lack of a structural test airframe and the odd minor testing hiccough.

EAP

Seeing how the ti foreplane was made back in the day was amazing, same with that gel 3D printing from catia, must be 20+ years ago now. Thanks for the information.

A bit of the history of ZD902:

It was converted to be TIARA in the early '90s as a project at DRA Farnborough. The captain was always the rear seat pilot with the pilot evaluating the systems occupying the front cockpit. To get the experimental displays in the front cockpit quite a few displays and controls were relocated to the rear cockpit including the fuel gauges, hydraulic switches and EPS although the engine start panel and X-drive controls remained in the front. One of the worst aspects in the front was that there were no Aj (nozzle) gauges so you relied on the rear seater to call the nozzles when you selected or cancelled reheat. For the early flying the HUD was not operational so all front seat approaches were flown on the small, non-standard standby instruments on the right instrument panel plus the strip AOA gauge - including practise 67 degree swept wing approaches which were interesting! The HUD was the Smiths 'Z' HUD, an early holographic display that had previously been evaluated at Farnborough in a Jaguar T2 (XX835). The biggest problem with it was that it had a very small headbox so even small head movements away from the reference eye position meant that you could not see the symbology.

Its role was to perform research and development tasks into sensor data fusion. Much of the trials equipment was carried in modified fuel tanks carried on the underfuselage shoulder pylons which resulted in quite a restrictive flight envelope. The radar was a Blue Vixen from the Sea Harrier FA2 although its performance was compromised by having the pitot-static boom mounted on the radome. It was also fitted in the late '90s with an IRST mounted on the nose just in front of one corner of the windscreen.

On 18 October 1994, it was the last military aircraft to be flown from Farnborough when it ceased to be a MoD airfield. It then operated at Boscombe Down until its last flight on 30 November 2011. I cannot recall when or precisely what its last trials project was (an IR sensor I think) but in its final months it was used as a support aircraft, including pilot currency flying, in support of the BVRAAM/Meteor missile trials from Boscombe Down.

It is worth remembering that ZD902 was part of a sizable UK MoD R&D Fleet that operated from one of two dedicated UK MoD R&D airfields (Farnborough and Bedford) but they ceased to fulfill this function just over 21 years ago. The dwindling R&D fleet continued at Boscombe Down until not too many years ago with this being one of its last assets. It was a great privilege to have had the opportunity to work in that world on aircraft such as TIARA.

John Eacott

The pic and caption of the "Concorde with Tornado at Mach2" is interesting. To be at that Mach number I believe Concorde would need to be at about 58,000' to be within its KCAS limit. Can ex F3 crew confirm? Of course, in the pic the Concorde could be steaming past or, a lot lower and slower? Cheers

OAP

The Concorde story somehow doesn't quite ring true for me.

On airtest you had to check inlet ramp operation, (1.3? can anyone correct me?) did one in the FI and had to call it a day due gas at M1.77. My best at low level was 750 chasing some GR1 Tornados off Cape Wrath, but I know these are small numbers :(

Can anyone confirm if the 'Goose' bar still exists in the Death Star at MPA? There was a table there made from the wingtip section of an F4....

AR1

Generally, Supersonic was limited to well out at sea. Exceptions would be some trials and specific exercises.;)

OAP

Unlike a certain RN Sub Lt in an F3 who went over Arbroath at M1.6 and had the fire brigade racing around town looking for the explosion.

He was delivering a jet from LM to LU in the work up to GW1 when jets were being swapped/modded and took the opportunity with a clean jet jet to see how fast he could go. Hit M2, but didn't realise how far behind the jet the shock wave drag would be and even more shocked when it didn't immediately slow down when he closed the throttles - then was afraid to climb/turn until it did.

Yes, I was controlling him - and we got away with it as I was at Boulmer, and they asked Buchan if they had anything under control, and they said no as they were doing a SIMEX.

Unlike the time the F3 I was controlling did M1.1 down Amble High St at 250ft chasing an F-111. Quite a lot of broken glass and claims from that one......

Happy days.......

Or the F3 doing M1.3 at low level in the Nevada Desert that allegedly blew over a Motorhome on the edge of the low level supersonic area on Red Flag (kills a kill) - apparently! :eek:

Not very popular news for the low-level supersonic over helicopter deniers! :cool:

LJ

Leon

I think the Vark was the king of Red Flag Supersonic f-ups. Certainly had a few injuries and damage on manned sites.:sad:

OAP

I do hope the pilot got credit and that somewhere there was a F3 with a motorhome stenciled on the side.

An F-8 recon bird was being stalked by a MiG-21 during a run over Cuba during the missile crisis and the pilot went supersonic at tree top height on the egress to escape detection. As he headed for the coast he saw a bare ridge line ahead of him with a lower "saddle" in the middle that he aimed the nose of his jet at. As he approached he noticed something outlined in the middle of the saddle, it was a burro with his rider, and the guy was busy relieving himself. The pilot wasn't sure of the clearance but he went over the guy's head at maybe 50 feet doing M1.

No it most certainly wasn't me but I always wanted an excuse to tell that one.

A "supersonic tales" thread might be interesting.

Just for information, why was the F3 so short lived in service ?, was it true that Bae damaged a batch of them during modification work beyond economical repair and did that play a part in it's demise ?

Air works, not BAe, and no, they repaired them using F2 fuselage sections.

The major reason was the end of the Cold War and subsequent defence reviews which eliminated the Germany and Wattisham based F4s (in the CR role as a dogfighter against Mig 29s) and the Jaguar fleets which the Eurofighter was planned to replace. In order to preserve industrial capability and work share on the Eurofighter programme, and since we were contractually to buy them anyway, the decision was made to use them to replace the UK based long range interceptor F3 fleet instead.

Here is a link to, Courtney Mil's excellent blog, detailing the Airwork fiasco, scroll down to the text inbetween the images of the AI.24 and the F.3 front cockpit...
Tornado F3 at RAF Leuchars, the AI24 Foxhunter Radar, Op Deny Flight and all about Medicine.

-RP

Thanks ORAC and Rhino Power, interesting read, all this privatising out work does not seem to work to well does it ?, Thanks once again.