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-   -   Vulcan Alleged Barrel Roll being investigated (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/570180-vulcan-alleged-barrel-roll-being-investigated.html)

salad-dodger 6th Nov 2015 22:44

What is your point Nut Loose?

S-D

Cows getting bigger 6th Nov 2015 22:47

Display flying aside, I think the Vulcan was on a Permit. A more pertinent question is what conditions were attached to the permit?

salad-dodger 6th Nov 2015 22:48


Does it matter anymore, at all ?
If it turns out to be an unauthorised manoeuvre, and the crew performing it still hold licenses, then yes, it does very much matter.


A simple question from a mere support numpty.
Please also save the embarrassingly pathetic false self deprecation. You use it on every thread. Have some self respect man, you were a GE in the RAF FFS!

S-D

TBM-Legend 7th Nov 2015 00:11

Saw a Vulcan do a roll after a very high speed low level departure [7.00am] at Williamtown RAAF Base in 1974 followed by a roll on climb-out. Last visit ex-Exercise Pitch Black in DRW. Loved the chaps stepping out of this beauty with their uniform on under their flight suit...

I was the twr controller at Willi...

Background Noise 7th Nov 2015 10:01


Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger (Post 9172563)
Display flying aside, I think the Vulcan was on a Permit. A more pertinent question is what conditions were attached to the permit?

I think you will find that at post #21

NutLoose 7th Nov 2015 10:46

Over stress and salad dodger my point is a roll in any shape or form is considered by the CAA to be an aerobatic manoeuvre and as such it is by the terms of the CAA Permit to fly operating outside its legally laid down limitations and as such is in breach of the ANO, which is therefore illegal.

Roll it once I could understand, as it may have been safer to continue the manoeuvre than to reverse the direction and you could argue the toss over that one, but twice you are either arrogant or just plainly stupid and either way you should no longer be in command of any aircraft and one hopes the CAA if the findings are proven come down heavily on the individual. He has by his actions already demonstrated his total disregard for the legally laid down limits for operating the aircraft he was flying safely, not exactly a ringing endorsement for an airline captain is it.

Not only that, but at the end of what has been a superb example of a civilian company operating a complex aircraft successfully over the past 8 years, it slightly tarnishes their reputation for safety and due diligence in all things, and one hopes it does not have a knock on effect for any future planned historical aircraft operations. I for one am looking forward to seeing the new Mosquito back in UK skies.

You make your choice, you accept the consequences.

.

Tourist 7th Nov 2015 11:43

Nutloose

 Lines – Mainly horizontal or up to 45° climbing/diving lines in normal flight.
 Turns – Turns through 90° to 360° in normal flight.
 Spins – Erect Spins of one turn, with entry and exit in normal flight.
 Stall Turns – Stall turns with normal entry and exit.
 Loops and Eights – Inside circular loops with normal entry and exit.
 Combinations – Half an inside loop followed by a half roll (‘Roll off the Top’.) Five eighths of an inside loop combined with a half roll on diving exit Line (‘Half Cuban 8’). 45° climbing line followed by a half roll and pull through to level flight (‘Reverse Half Cuban 8’)
 Rolls – Slow, aileron or barrel rolls on horiz

The extract you posted to prove that a roll is an aerobatic manuever would also by the same logic call turns and lines aerobatic manuevers, surely?

iRaven 7th Nov 2015 11:48

Do we know who was flying it on 'that' day? Some who flew XH558 are not airline pilots.

iRaven

NutLoose 7th Nov 2015 12:22

Fair enough Raven, someone else mentioned he flew for an airline so I leave it at that... open.

It all comes down to what the CAA defines as aerobatics then? I was always lead to believe a roll was counted as that, time will tell.


BTW from


http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL19.pdf


2 AIRCRAFT SUITABILITY



a) The particular aircraft which you propose to use must be cleared for the aerobatic manoeuvres intended, so a review of the Certificate of Airworthiness/Permit to Fly and the Flight Manual/Pilot’s Operating Handbook, including all Supplements, is essential before flight. These will detail the permitted speeds (e.g. VA – manoeuvring speed, the maximum speed at which controls can be fully deflected under normal circumstances), as well as the permitted manoeuvres and load factors, which may vary between two outwardly identical aircraft. The aircraft should, ideally, be fitted with a ‘g’ meter to confirm that it has been flown within its permitted ‘g’ envelope. In addition, try to avoid sudden large control movements at any speed, especially when reversing direction.









turbroprop 7th Nov 2015 14:36

My understanding is that the reason for the Vulcan being grounded is due to the Design Authorities withdrawing their support. I can see their reasoning as it is near impossible to guarantee the integrity of a single complex aging aircraft. Even if a strong case could be put forward to reverse their decision it does not help the case if the aircraft appears to be operated outside of it's permit.

On the other hand...

Wish I had been one of the lucky ones to have witnessed that roll. No harm done and what a way to sign off her flying career.

Tengah Type 7th Nov 2015 15:39

IIRC Aerobatics are defined as more than 90 degrees of pitch or bank angle. Therefore a barrel roll is an aerobatic manoeuvre.

I have only seen a couple of frames of the alleged barrel roll, in online newspapers, and not the full sequence. Are the weather conditions, ambient lighting, and positioning of the aircraft in the sequence of frames, correct for the whole thing being shot from the ground on that date/time?

I have no idea of the height, speed or track of the aircraft at the time.

Thomas coupling 7th Nov 2015 15:57

In the UK - where exactly is the definition of an aerobatic manouevre?

Tourist 7th Nov 2015 16:52


Originally Posted by Tengah Type (Post 9173306)
IIRC Aerobatics are defined as more than 90 degrees of pitch or bank angle. Therefore a barrel roll is an aerobatic manoeuvre.

Well that, if true, is very interesting, and indicative of catastrophic failure of the CAA to not stop the Vulcan pilots years ago.


These scoundrels have been going past 90 degrees bank angle repeatedly on every display with millions watching!

Did nobody notice!!!

Ground the Vulcan immediately!!!

goudie 7th Nov 2015 16:59


These scoundrels have been going past 90 degrees bank angle repeatedly on every display with millions watching!
I was one of those millions. Three cheers for those scoundrels. Hip hip...:ok:

Pontius Navigator 7th Nov 2015 17:03

Is it not true that this is a sequence of stills and not a video? Equally is there any ground reference from which to deduce bank angle, pitch or height?

I was once required to calibrate my camera for a CAA investigation. Is there any chance of a vali calibration in this case?

NutLoose 7th Nov 2015 17:53

The main reason it's grounded is I believe from what I have read is because the engines are at their life limits, they I believe had already been extended once, but with no viable replacement units available RR took the correct decision and withdrew the design authority for them, that would have resulted in the others DA's being withdrawn.
It's all well and good saying let it fly etc, but if it went down at an airshow etc I would hate to think of the casualties and in this day and age the company share price is everything. Just look how quick RR were to release a press statement when the BA 777 burst into flames in Vegas pointing out it was not their engines.

4mastacker 7th Nov 2015 18:09

It does seem a little strange that no one else appears to have reported seeing the alleged act. Whenever I've seen the aircraft over this part of the universe, it has either been following the High Dyke (to the east of the town) or over to the west near to Belvoir Castle.

Here is a link to the report in the local rag.

VIDEO: Did Vulcan do banned trick over Grantham? - Grantham Journal

The location where the person claims they saw the alleged event is beside the big white tower on the high ground just to the east of the A1 and south of the town(for those familiar with the area).

Here's a link to Bing maps which shows the position of the water tower.

Gorse Lane water tower

I am assuming (a dangerous thing to do) that the aircraft was heading north at the time judging by the sun's reflections on the aircraft - perhaps a PI could confirm that. But, if that guy was standing where he says he was standing, looking at those photo clips would put the manoeuvre being carried out at low level directly over the town centre. I think if that was the case, we would have heard about this "event" a lot quicker than the three weeks it took this guy to bring it to the attention of a regional newspaper.

jumpseater 7th Nov 2015 19:18

It did roll. Twice. It was seen by a good friend of mine who isn't into aviation. His description was as per the videos. He lives just south of Grantham. A couple of his friends were with him too and also saw the event. I heard about it on the day 4th Oct, just after it occurred.

sycamore 7th Nov 2015 21:29

So, the photographer `just happened` to be `there` at the time the `aircraft` was` allegedly` rolled..bit of a coincidence...?
I don`t see any smoke from 4 Olympi,nor any vortices from the wingtips..
In a clear blue sky,and over a major town,no evidence of clouds,horizon or other features..? rather `jerky` stills,compared to what is produced at air displays...?
Possibly taken from another aircraft ,rolling around ,above,below `558`,and then `stitched` together` with a lot of photoshopping...?
90 deg/sec rate of roll for the `2nd.roll..?
If it had happened as indicated,it would have hit the streets within hours,not weeks.....
If i`d have had the chance to do it,it would have been above 8/8 cloud cover,where one can barrel-roll almost any aircraft at no more than 2-2.25 G,at the most....


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