RAF Instructors - steely eyed or gentle and supportive ?
 

I never myself had the pleasure of strapping into an aircraft with an RAF instructor but some of the stories of their ascerbic wit and "supportive" comments are legend. I just finished watching an old documentary from the 1980s where one student pilot endured the following on his downwind in a JP - "what about the bloody flaps", and on tapping the throttle "Well, well, come on...remember this thing, it makes it go FASTER" - I was sweating for the poor student who looked absolutely crestfallen.

So were these guys really such martinets, or was there a measure of gentle and supportive coaching as well ?

There are many different types of instructor in military flying training.

Personally, I prefer the harsh but fair ones and respond better.

I find civil flying instruction generally too huggy-fluffy. You can sometimes have trouble knowing how you are doing.

"that's fine" when you know it isn't is very irritating and destabilising.


All that said, the worst example of instruction I saw was on that suzi air programme with the new pilot getting abused by some w@nker instructor on his first circuit in the aircraft.

Harsh is ok, but only if fair.

Like every walk of life, there are good and not so good QFIs in the RAF. Over the years I had extensive experience instructing at every level including a spell on CFS (when it was CFS and not the neutered, scattered organisation it is now) and have seen QFIs of every ability and temperament but we did try to filter out any really bad prospects at CFS.

Fonsini, if the clip you are referring to was from the infamous Fighter Pilot programme, the instruction shown by the QFI (who I went through training with) was dreadful and I believe his instructor category was reduced because of that. The mistake the RAF made was agreeing to no vetting of the programme before it was aired

Mine, on the JP, was definitely 'steely-eyed' in his calmness under the pressure of some of the stunts to which I subjected him.
He was also a film star in a 'what not to say if you don't want yer head kicked in' in R to I.
Thanks, Roger F-H :ok:

I did my CFS course in 1991 when there was a significant change in the emphasis on instructional technique. We were the first course to get psychology of instructing lectures with the aim on getting the best out of the student with the carrot and not the stick. My training went along the lines of what you saw in that clip from Fighter Pilot and it was poor.

We were shown that clip at CFS as an example of how not to instruct!

From my memories of the student point of view, I would say that what an instructor needs above all is patience !

D.:ooh:

The story I heard at Scampton a few years later was that the QFI may have had to revisit CFS for a bit of discussion, not sure there was a re-cat. Whatever happened I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was yet another victim of that programme. Over the years I've met and/or worked with a few of those involved (students and others) - they've all claimed a heck of a lot of "imaginative" work went on in the cutting room and one or two other tricks were played elsewhere, all to get the results the producer/director wanted.

Agreed...but I doubt the producer would ever have agreed to any loss of editorial control.

IMVHO they were all gentle, supportive, lovable people who were never unkind to children, animals..... or students.......:ok:

Bas: "Do you think I've any chance of making FJ?"
QFI: 'Nope!"

Unlike navs, pilots are subjected only to pilot trainers.

On one sortie, NW of Stornoway the nav requested a left turn when he meant right. Next, NE of Aberdeen he again requested a left turn south.

Finally, given a snap diversion to Aberdeen he again called the turn wrong. Having chidded the stude twice this time the pilot executed a 270 degree turn.

The pilot was a complete prat. He couldn't see how the stude was barely holding it together. Not only that but his long turn ate up our fuel margin and we no longer had fuel to fly the proceedure. ATC was pissed off and my stude was totally unnerved before the hop back to base with no NAv kit like whizz wheel, fuller, or dividers.

"I'm your QFI, I'm here to help you."

"Right Blogs, don't worry, this is just a TDCR."

There are two types of instructor....those who think that they are there to "weed out" the weaker students and those who are there to actually train them! I could never really understand those branches with instructors who were very proud of their high "chop rate" - when I was an instructor I felt that my job was to pass people through the course if humanly possible and I considered it a failure for me as well as the student if I lost anyone. Most students needed a confidence boost while others perhaps needed the occasional "pull your finger out". In any event, it is horses for courses and the best method for the individual involved.

I thought that the 'Fighter Pilot' clip was actually a put up job for the benefit of the BBC luvvies and wasn't how that QFI normally taught students?

During my training, there were a few poseur QFIs and others who didn't want to be there. They came from the "I've told you how to do it, I've shown you how to do it, I can do it, the aircraft can do it - so why the hell can't you do it?" school of instruction.....:uhoh:

The better ones were those who hadn't breezed their own training and knew what it was like to struggle - so were more patient and helpful than some sky god longing to be back in his Lightning.

Gentle wit was often helpful - I got rather too low on a flapless approach in a JP and my QFI commented "Red/pinks are OK, red/reds make my bum twitch, but don't let's get down to green/greens again - OK?".

In my latter days of QFI-ing on the FunBus, the task kept increasing but without the resources to meet it, thanks to chiselling thrusters who wouldn't say no. Quite a few AAR FIs hadn't bothered to become dual qualified in both the AT and AAR role and some of the AT FIs weren't even qualified to fly in the AAR role, let alone instruct (I did like one co-pilot's comment "Watching D****n R**s flying AAR is like watching your Dad trying to programme a video recorder"). But the net effect was that the few of us who were dual qualified were working far harder than was reasonable and becoming tired out as a result - to the total detriment of the quality of instruction we were providing. I know that now with the benefit of hindsight - I just wish I'd realised at the time.

Quote:
"I find civil flying instruction generally too huggy-fluffy. You can sometimes have trouble knowing how you are doing."

Evidently things have changed since the 1960s... :}

I had a very mixed bag:

First - creamie - couldn't understand why I was having difficulty - odd punch in the JP, lots of expletives and was a generally unpleasant individual. More chips than Harry Ramsden's.

Second an ex F4 pilot - unbelievable contrast to the former; very relaxed and encouraging and as a result my flying improved tenfold. I should've had him from the start and perhaps I wouldn't have used so much flex flying with the uptight creamie with a clear inferiority complex and maybe got two wings instead!

Hey ho; you can't change the past.

I have a fair amount of instructional experience. I was a sqn cdr at Linton and also the stnds cdr. I was also heavily involved in the work on the infamous TV film. In my opinion a very large percentage QFIs tried to do their best and would come to me if they thought they were having a personality issue with a student. I also got good feedback in the bar on a TGIF thrash. I think I would have soon learned if airborne bullying was taking place and would have jumped on it pronto. The nearest it came was when one student was having serious problems. So I reallocated him to one of my best (most successful) QFIs. After I had briefed him he asked "OK boss, do you want me to teach him or set him up" He was not serious, worked hard and the student graduated.

On another tack, I have also done a fair amount of civil instructing at a large school. IMHO the standard there was far below that in the RAF with very little empathy with the students. I became so dissatisfied with what was happening that I decided to get out of it and become an airline pilot with Air Europe. Pity it went bust.

And QHIs ;)

Hear hear. From what (little) I have seen, the number of 'weeder-outers' is thankfully dropping. Not yet extinct though :sad:

I remember a Gnat QFI who carried a nav ruler with him and regularly poked his student in the neck with same....not so huggy fluffy back then.......

I remember having the news broken to me that I wasn't going to fly anything fast and pointy:

Boss: "Well Dan, you can either be a multi engine pilot, or a smoking hole in a hillside"'.

Me: "Err - I think the former sounds the best option."

Boss: "Good choice!"

I remember the Gnat QFI with the ruler! My instructors were all very different, but I was lucky and never had one I could not get on with. The most important trait was to be able to pull "firm but fair" from the bag when necessary, thanks Bob Turner and Vic Wightman particularly in that respect. QFIs in the early days of 360 were pretty special, especially Eric Fell.

Mid-sixties, very immature and scared eighteen-year old. My instructor was pretty tough: the bone-done got a regular thumping. I should perhaps have asked for a change of instructor, but I think I was scared to. Didn't enjoy the JP as much as I could have. Having said that, he did teach me to fly and, after a full career as a military and civil pilot, I guess I'm belatedly grateful.

Not a QFI but an extrovert yarpie sqn cdr on Vulcans, retired as an AM, regularly punched his copilot sufficiently hard to give him a dead arm. Right bully but much adored.

The helicopter Bob Turner later in his career, by any chance?

PN, did anyone ever thump him back?

CG

"My" Bob Turner a S African, mid 60s, won Wright Jubilee in 66, one of the display rehearsals with me in the front seat following my IRT, and cleared to 200ft!

I had an Eastern European instructor (no names, no drills but the initials were JR) who was er, generous with a nav rule. His use of the English language was unique in my experience. I shall never forget him saying "I tell you once. I tell you twice but I no tell you a second time!" Looking back though he wasn't all bad. Happy days.

Maybe Both
 

OK here is my confession, as a reluctant creamie QFI on the Hawk in 1982 I am willing to admit I was an awful instructor but this was an era when the RAF appeared to want steely eyed pilots.

Why? Because the Cold War was real and they, the Russians, never rolled into Germany because there were people on our side who would have nuked them into the stone age. Later on I was part of that role.

Why were RAF QFIs hard? Because the pace of training and the demands of flying and operating current 1982 fast jets was very high. My first student, Paul Gay, died on the other side of the airfield when things went wrong on finals and the board found that his QFI had stalled, others were not so sure.

So it boiled down to this, if there was doubt over the ability of a student pilot to proceed in fast jet training they were chopped. Paul Gay is a name on a piece of silver in a dusty cupboard in the mess and those that were chopped live on.

I was a better instructor later on when on a third tour at Valley.

As one who fell/plummeted through the cracks ...

PPL ... Instructor was thoughtful, supportive and genial. I did OK, including going solo in 6 1/2 hours. (Piper Colt = simples)

RN Flying Grading ... First 3 trips in a Tiger Moth with a supportive [civvy] mentor [2 1/2 hours]. I was then transferred to another civvy "QFI" of the shouting, ranting, persuasion, who managed over the remaining 7 1/2 hours to completely obliterate my confidence and [minimal] skill as I tried to convert from nose-wheel to taildragger.

My only [small] consolation was that following my early retirement from the RN, and some questions being asked via our MP, "QFI 2" was no longer employed in the role. And, thanks for the offer RN, but no ... I didn't want to consider driving ships for a living ;)

Breaking it Gently.
 

Old, apocryphal story (surprised it hasn't come up yet)

Wartime QFI (Polish or Czech origin) to Stude:

"Smeeth !"...."Sir ?"...."Vot is your name ?"...."Smith, Sir !"...."No no, vot is your ozzer name ?"...."Robert, Sir"...."No no no, vot does your muzzer call you ?"....(bashfully) "Bobbie, Sir".

QFI (puts fatherly arm round stude's shoulders)...."Well, Bobbee - you're scrubbed !" :(

D.

CG, I think one co did.

A few years later, when he was a staish, I held the door open for him and got a double handed punch below my rib cage. Like I said, a bully, but he did look after the troops.

Current CFS teaching
 

I think the modern CFS is very into coaching (which I think is something like baby led weaning applied to flight instruction). And I seem to recall the mantra is RCP. I think it means Ridicule, Criticise, Patronise but I might be wrong on that.

You guys are good, it was indeed the JP training sequence from Fighter Pilot I was referring to - I picked up a 3 pack of "wannabee FP" DVDs including "Combat Pilot" and "617 - The Last Days Of a Vulcan Squadron".

I also clearly remember the original early Fighter Pilot series even now - right from the initial interviews and those strange follow-the-dots hand/eye coordination machines all the way through to the final selection where (as if by TV magic) only one of the entrants made it through to fly an actual Fighter, a milkman if I remember correctly and he went on to Buccaneers - strange facts stick in the memory. The scene where the Air Minister asked for questions from the students expecting them to ask about seats in the (then) new Tornado only to be caught off-guard with numerous complaints about them not getting their promised holidays was a particular highlight.

The "Creamie" concept in the RAF always surprised me, student straight to instructor with no squadron service always struck me as odd - I wonder if other established air forces do something similar, or maybe I'm misunderstanding the process.

I've done my own share of adult teaching, albeit in a different profession and I can testify that knocking the confidence out from under any student almost always guarantees a poor performance.

Kudos to those of you who made it through, I very much doubt I would have made it.

PN:

So he punched people when they were in no position to defend themselves.

Don't suppose he ever tried it midway through a drinking session did he?

Sounds like a BellEnd

He was indeed a bullying bell end. Although I gather that he once met his match, following which he wasn't quite so free with his fists any longer.

Reputedly he would turn up unannounced during exercises and mingle to hear the moans and bitches from the lads - much to Stn Cdrs' consternation.

He came to Brawdy in 1976 and was taken flying in a Hunter 7. The other pilot was also a Yarpie. The Line Chief had scoured the squadrons to find a pair of suitable groundcrew to assist; as the pilots settled in to their bang seats, a grinning black face appeared at the top of each ladder to help strap them in.....:ok:

This was the apartheid era; however, both Yarps thought it was a good jape!

Back to the thread - whether it's the smaller need for aircrew recruits meaning that only the best prospects are selected or better instructors, but I gather that the success rate from first flight to front line is much higher than hitherto.

ExRadar, you could say that but I couldn't possibly comment.

He used to carry a bull whip. In contrast, his OC Ops was a great guy, rugby player and Big enough . . . He also rose to AVM.

A bull whip? The full Indiana Jones...:eek:?

Or did you mean a sjambok?

BEagle, I defer. Still made a helluva crack.

I am surprised one of the stars of the early part of Fighter Pilot hasn't commented on this. He was writing a book on the series, giving the true account, which I for one eagerly await! Where are you Martin?
My own experience and one which my Ex CO and I can laugh about now was not a happy one. Maybe I was just rubbish, I was eager to learn, but it just didn't happen for me, much to my dismay. Fighter Pilot was a very similar experience to what I had. Being whacked around the head didn't help either , sweating in a Bulldog cockpit. The chop when it came was EFATO, which I had never been shown.

Fast forward ten years later, I had to try again. Very nice ,calm, relaxed local flying club instructor, never once raised his voice or more importantly hand. Went solo after 7 hours and more ratings followed. The instructor is now a senior 767 Captain.

Personally I put it down to my being too young. My peers never seem to have had any trouble however. For all the disappointment that it brought, I wouldn't have missed it for the world and for that Boss I thank you!

PN and others ... yes, Bullwhip was my Stn Cdr too. In the Bar he once punched me in the stomach [a complete surprise blow] and when I half-doubled up he said "What's the matter, aren't you fit?". Strange behaviour.

My first OC Ops there [or was it OC FW back then] was [I assume] that rugby player mentioned above, and was OK, although he had the perverse habit of opening the airfield at weekends for transport aircraft that could have easily used the H-24 transport airfield a dozen or so miles away. This did NOT go down well with those who were already on shift pattern Mon-Fri from early morning until late at night. He made ACM.

He was followed by a short, multi-talented, wg cdr, who held a drag race with Staish on the runway. Healey 3000 v Ferrari.

All 3 made Air Rank anyway - I doubt they posted 2nd division people into those jobs.

(Which has nothing to do with the topic ... please excuse nostalgic rambling)

Some on here may have learned to fly on Flying Scholarship at Sywell in the 50s and 60s and recall an irascible instructor by the name of Les Hilditch. After him, any instructor was benign!

Struggling on JP3s at 7 FTS, my instructors and flight commander did their best for me, nothing like the bloke on "Fighter Pilot", which was still fresh in the memory back then. My chop ride with the deputy flight commander of B Flight was a different matter though. No complaints about the miserable outcome, but what an a******e.

The 1 TWU steely eyed QFI (QWI)?? at Brawdy on the Fighter pilot series summed this ethos up very succintly....

"Nobody wants to go to war with a w@nker on your wing".

I know I certainly wouldn't have wanted to.