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-   -   Bu**ar off...and leave your watch! (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/569041-bu-ar-off-leave-your-watch.html)

O-P 12th Oct 2015 01:02

CM,

When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.

There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.

reynoldsno1 12th Oct 2015 02:45


I didn't press the point that he perhaps shouldn't be using the title 'Captain.'
... ISTR that it was also the habit of Army regiments to commission the RSM in the rank of Captain before retirement so that they received a better pension ...

Army Mover 12th Oct 2015 07:15


Originally Posted by reynoldsno1 (Post 9144762)
... ISTR that it was also the habit of Army regiments to commission the RSM in the rank of Captain before retirement so that they received a better pension ...

Not sure about this, but ISTR that you needed 2 years in the rank before you got the higher pension.

Wensleydale 12th Oct 2015 07:58

I also discovered that security clearance now lapses after a few months out of the firm! No longer is it valid and therefore you would need to be security cleared again in order to get access to base without an escort (which undoubtedly costs money).

Above The Clouds 12th Oct 2015 08:03


I also discovered that security clearance now lapses after a few months out of the firm
To be quite honest I am surprised it takes a few months to lapse, once you hand in your ID that should terminate any requirement to gain access to a secure area, in the civil world with access to secure areas once your finished all access stops immediately and so it should.

strake 12th Oct 2015 08:09

Many years ago, my old flying instructor, who had a wonderful career with the RAF, mused to me over a beer, 'I loved the RAF but I quickly realised that once my services were over, the RAF didn't love me...'

Madbob 12th Oct 2015 08:24

I left the RAF in 1989 and have seldom looked back apart from various reunions over the years. Initially these were on base and we were welcomed by the powers-that-be, i.e. PMC/Mess Manager and could hold a private function in the mess and get accommodation. All that changed a long time ago and we now meet-up invariably in an hotel.


Times have changed and I accept that but it still saddens me that such one time perks, as decent food, decent staff, a friendly bar, and a "batty" service have all but gone.


The point thought that Four Types initially made though was in part more general and that was the poor way that ex-service personnel (of all colours) get treated as veterans. Much more I think ought to be done to recognise the service that vets have given to the country.


I remember lots of visits by ex-RAF personnel in the guise of RAFA visits, or former RAF servicemen/women of the staff of ATC squadrons etc. who inevitably got a tour of the ATC tower, Fire Section and a spiel of what the station did, whether it be front-line stuff or flying training. I met some very interesting people in the process. I very much hope that such visits still go on.......


I fully understand the need for additional security to restrict access to military establishments but I think it fairly safe to assume that former service personnel are a pretty low threat......and can be considered to play still for the same side whether in uniform or not!


MB

Ex Cargo Clown 12th Oct 2015 08:40

All a bit paranoid and OTT. I remember very well having to jump the fence at Valley in 1993 on the Ros side and go to to the Ops centre next to fully armed Jags. I didn't get stopped. And it was for a good reason I had to go there.

Arm out the window 12th Oct 2015 09:26


'I loved the RAF but I quickly realised that once my services were over, the RAF didn't love me...'
...or to paraphrase and drag gutterwards, one quotable quote from this hemisphere was "I love the f*****g RAAF and the RAAF loves f*****g me!"

Having said that, I must agree with those above who've intimated that we're entitled to be in certain places when we're in, but after that we shouldn't expect automatic special treatment.

Pontius Navigator 12th Oct 2015 09:41

Oldpax, live a few miles away but felt no impelling need to seek an invite or attend.

Chugalug2 12th Oct 2015 09:48

Times change and thus we are forced to as well. The moment that single members could move out of the Mess into there own property spelt out the writing on the wall. Does anyone at all live in them now on a permanent basis? Those magnificent pseudo Georgian piles now run more by plc's rather than pmc's are fast losing their raison d'etre.

That tendency will have been accelerated by the difficulty of Squadron Associations arranging reunions on the station that their serving squadron inhabits. Mine has all but abandoned the effort and has gravitated to inviting the Squadron to a less than local hotel, rather than the latter inviting us to its Messes (either Sgts & WOs, or Officers). I would have thought that enhanced the security threat to serving and ex-serving individuals, but then again I don't see the big picture...

Yeller_Gait 12th Oct 2015 09:59


...or to paraphrase and drag gutterwards, one quotable quote from this hemisphere was "I love the f*****g RAAF and the RAAF loves f*****g me!"
Multiply the f*** factor by 10 and you will be somewhere near the RAF. To be fair though, there are some idiotic rules enforced at bases around the RAAF, different bases, different rules.

Is it so wrong that I have still have my RAF ID card several years after leaving?

Y_G

ps, never been back to UK to try and use it to gain access either, I just never got round to handing it in as I had somewhere better to go.

Courtney Mil 12th Oct 2015 11:00


Originally Posted by O-P
CM,

When I knew you as both Sqn Ldr and Wg Cdr, you didn't need to use your rank with me. Sadly, I don't know you as a civilian.

There is a huge difference between rank and leadership.

I always thought that people have names, why not use them.

Brings to mind our Sqn Ldr Ops at Chiv. He'd been around a long time and just lived to fly. Lovely bloke. He'd been bollocked many years earlier for failing to call someone important "Sir". His solution was to call everyone "Sir" regardless of who they were.

Four Types 12th Oct 2015 11:35

Right to reply!
 
Got a few bites on that one! Just to clarify a few points.


I am not attached to the RAF by an umbilical!...I have well and truly departed the crumbling ruin I proudly joined 34+ years ago. I have moved on to a new and more interesting career.


I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?' but as I get older and more senile I sometimes feel the need to ask my long suffering wife this question first thing in the morning!!


As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO (to which I thank my Flt Cdr for - NOT!) so I am afraid I had security ripped out of my ar*e on many occasions on behalf of those amongst us who didn't share my respect for it.


No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour. Having just retired I know how busy they are and also my 'gripe' is aimed at the Military in general, not just one person.


I do not expect to be allowed to wander on to a camp at will, hence my gripe at the Airshow Free Pass remark.


I referred to the US system of giving the veterans the option of utilising the facilities on camp (gym, mess, bars, shops(!)). Thus, whilst you are still in and security cleared you could apply for a pass (make it one/two station specific if you will) and then still be able to socialise with the chaps you served with as they move on over the next 5 years. Not too much to ask for is it?


I was more upset that the chap who took the time to invite me had to leave his beer and come and escort me back to his beer! Never been keen on inconveniencing friends.


But, all in all I knew this would be a good topic for a discussion. It reminds of those days when we could sit around the crew room and banter each other remorselessly. Can't do that anymore, I am not allowed in!

ShotOne 12th Oct 2015 12:07

Is it really so unreasonable to restrict access to military installations to EX-servicemen? Timothy McVeigh and Lee Harvey Oswald were both ex-servicemen.

If you feel hard done-by, try using your pass to go airside at any civilian airport as an ex-employee and see how far you get.

exuw 12th Oct 2015 12:57

When already in a hole, stop digging.......

Four Types:

Given that at least three of the paragraphs in your "Right to reply" appear to address my post #13, I'll bite again.

I didn't actually use the phrase 'do you know who I am?'

I nveer said that you did but the whole tone of your original post screams that this is/was your mindset - particularly given your use of the word "jobsworth".

As to 'do I understand security?' I was a USyO

As a mere civvie I am unfamiliar with this nomenclature. I tried Goggling this acronym but gave up after scrolling through ten pages of otherwise unrelated references. No doubt your role was vital to the defence of the nation and afforded you special insight into security matters but, if so, I remain to be persuaded by what you have said so far.

No, I have not written to the Station Commander to demand a 14 page explanation for such behaviour.

I did not say you needed to write to demand a 14 page explanation. Any staish worth his or her salt would surely be able respond in a concise fashion to any polite enquiry from former serving personnel as to why security on-site is configured the way it is given specific geographical location, frequency of visitors, proportion of civilian against serving personnel, sensitivity of ops on base etc.

Your "gripe" may well be aimed at the "Military in general" but I suspect you are more likely to get a meaningful response from the local commander than if you try approaching the CAS (or even the CDS).

I hope your host who had to leave his beer for a few minutes understands better than you appear to do. If not then he and you should arrange to banter off-base.

Easy Street 12th Oct 2015 13:06

ShotOne,

That would only be a fair comparison if airport employees' social clubs and guest accommodation were airside, which they aren't, and if a significant number of airport workers lived airside, which they don't.

----

A great advantage of the US system of maintaining the link between the retired community and the base is that the potential market for on-base shops, social facilities, etc is greatly increased - all of which benefits the serving inhabitants through e.g. having a large and cheap supermarket on site. Then there are the intangible benefits to the moral component of fighting power accrued from unforced and natural social contact between the retired generation and the serving 'youth'.

The US can manage this without a problem because they have a much more layered approach to security than does the typical British military base, and hence can be less worried about the number of 'social' passes issued to families and veterans. British bases are slowly changing as infrastructure gets rebuilt, with the introduction of proximity cards, touchpads or other forms of control of access for the more sensitive areas. I wonder if this might, in time, result in a slightly more 'can-do' attitude to social visitors to domestic areas?

Finally - security clearances 'lapsing'. AIUI retirees are required to hand back their passes almost immediately, thereby losing their rights of access, but their security-cleared status (i.e. SC, DV, etc) continues until its next renewal date (note, being 'security-cleared' does not actually get you anywhere unless you have relevant employment). Cleared status has traditionally been seen as an attractive CV item when applying to certain sectors of industry as it saves them paying for it themselves. Finding the vaguest of reasons to get clearances renewed towards the end of a final tour of duty has been a long-standing wheeze!

camelspyyder 12th Oct 2015 13:48

Mind you - banter is only allowed now if there is a 0.00% chance of it offending anyone at all in the entire EU, or the possibility of infringing on their personal rights in some way. Hardly worth getting a temporary pass for a barrel these days - the Fun Police are here to stay.

langleybaston 12th Oct 2015 14:25

Regardless of the rights and wrongs of being denied access [or access being more trouble than its worth]: the first day of retirement is the first day outside the magic circle, and yes, it does hurt.

Even for this civvy more or less permanently attached, with a slack handful of passes and almost every clearance known to mortal man, giving it all up caused many a pang. I miss the RAF more than I miss the Met. Office, for sure.

Hence my pathetic maunderings and mumblings on this forum!

Union Jack 12th Oct 2015 14:37

When already in a hole, stop digging....... Exuw

Oo err, Missus! Standing by for the former USyO to lambaste Exuw for failing to comply with the statement at the top of Military Aviation page and apparent lack of experience with Service banter or, indeed, awareness of the definition of an acronym.....:=

Jack

PS And to think I was under the impression that "exuw" meant a former Underwater Weapons rating:)


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