Russia sends four SU27s to Syria
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/20/wo...role.html?_r=0

Looks like they want air superiority over the airspace that Cameron wants the RAF to use.

Also an SA-22 system up and running.

The Israelis must be very happy with these developments.

The allies lost a great opportunity to make Syria into a no fly zone and thus stop the barrel bombs.

For better or worse Syria is still under the legal control of the Assad Government. ISIS may control large portions of the country but that does not extend to any airspace. Allied aircraft may not have the outright permission of the Syrian Government to operate in Syrian airspace but Assad is turning a blind eye because they are hitting ISIS. The Allies don't have the legal ability to deny the Syrian Air Force or anyone else access to Syrian airspace let alone forces invited into the country by the legitimate government.

dat581 got that right.

flown transit over that bit of dirt a wee bit afore this latest shenanegan. Mr RWR impolitely informed me that Bashar Or his associates were using our invited passage as a little DACT practice. No Bead window but passed on what was available- hope it helps,

H

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPVdSSCUwAA1W-X.jpg

But they are under Grad rocket attack: https://twitter.com/raging545/status/645303266612527104

Are they any worse than nuclear weapons?

No. Terrorist, or rebel depending on your PoV, propoganda.

They have nothing within range of that airbase that could hit it.

Hardly the latest technology; they're what 30 years old?

Streetwise Professor: Putin Has Made His Sandbox. Let Him Play In It.

Those look awfully like they have canards towards the front, unless my eyes deceive me, which would make them a little younger than 30...

Chevvron wrote

They appear to be Su-30SMs? These are new-build with the SM first flight taking place in 2012.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30

Su-30SM Multirole Fighter Aircraft - Airforce Technology

Judging by the camouflage they appear to be Russian Air Force. The Russian Navy also operate the SM. Link to gallery of Russian Su-30SM.

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/type.php?p=5493

Are they any worse than nuclear weapons? - RH200

I suggest that the answer is yes, inasmuch as that they are being actively used against a defenceless civilian population.

Jack

Does anyone have a real problem with Putin reinforcing Assad? Their ROE will be less restrictive than the UN and their response no doubt more robust with less regard to collateral damage.

The Aviationist agrees: The Aviationist » Satellite image shows four Russian Su-30SM parked in the open air at airfield in Syria

Su-30SM

Plus two Mi-24 gunship helicopters and two Mi-17 Hip utility choppers.

I'd have thought a bunch of Su-25s would be more use in that fight.

Royalistflyer
I suppose it all depends who the SU 30s have been sent to fight or protect Syria from.
If they are there as a message to allied or IAF F15s then they may be the best aircraft for the job.

Su-24 Fencers and IL-78 Midas claimed to have been filmed over Homs, Syria.

PN, Russia's RoE have always been less restrictive.

Do remember the story from Beirut in the 80s when a couple of Russian's from the embassy were snatch by a local militia, it would appear that a member of the leaders family head was sent home, was sent home with the warning we would like our people back unharmed, they were.

Or, Somalian pirates who tried to attack a Russian ship intercepted by a naval spetznaz team, they we cast adrift and as the boat went across horizon it went boom.

Not people to mess around with.

America, and NATO, goofed when we sought to get rid of Assad and his Alawite elite ruling class. Evil though Assad was, he was the least evil of the possibilities. Few could foresee him lasting this long, but those who knew history knew that Assad had no other choice. Surrender was not an option.

The Alawites are considered pagans by the Sunni. They are not even afforded the dhimmi status given to Christians and Jews. They have been savagely abused over the centuries.

Ibn Taymiyyah, a renowned 13th and 14th century Islamic scholar, issued a fatwa against Alawites, declaring them “greater infidels than Christians, Jews or idolaters,” and calling for a holy war against them. Alawites faced systemic abuse and repression that continued until the end of the Ottoman empire.

The Sunnis cannot stand to be ruled over by people lower than dhimmis. The Alawites know that to surrender means genocide. The Alawites will go down like the Nazis in Berlin in 1945. They have no other choice.

Oddly, the Alawite religion has a mix of Christianity in it, making them friendly with Christians, another victimized group. The Alawites ruthlessly enforced a secularity in a part of the world that revolts against it. As bizarre as it seems, Syria had these Western values. Anyone with half a brain could have foreseen that the way to handle the situation was to offer Assad a hand in exchange for breaking relations with Iran and Hezb’allah. In 2011, that might have worked.

No longer.

The US screwed up in Syria. If Russia is foolish enough to butt in, then let them. Maybe they can do a better job of eliminating ISIS and radical Islam than we are doing.

Bob C

AFAIK, the Flankers have an air to ground capability and might be better suited than Frogfoot in Syria.

But wouldn't that be like the USAF sending F-15Es instead of A-10s?

"I'd have thought a bunch of Su-25s would be more use in that fight."

I think they'll use these for air support and fly heavy Tupolev bombers from russian bases over Iran&Iraq to do the bombing(it's the route they already use for Antonov transport aircrafts). They might even drop some on ISIS targets in Iraq as well, to appease iraqi government.

Apparently the newspaper "Kommersant" confirms that 1,700 Russian soldiers are in the Syrian port city of Tartous.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPbecqEWwAACMdX.jpg

This is the reason why I personally, have a problem with Russia being involved.

Governments have a moral and humanitarian responsibility to minimise damage to property and death of civilians, regardless of whether they're a member of the UN. The refugee crisis is significant already, it will get a whole lot worse when Russia's contribution to the Operation gets in to the full swing. IMHO.

JSF, in today's world in the west, you are correct. 60 odd years ago we employed rather more robust ROE in Malaya, Kenya, Aden etc. Russia may be operating as 70-80 years ago against a foe using rules from 700-800 ago.

Turning the other cheek may be Christian, but robust Christianity may be what is needed.

I see the media is now saying Putin-Assad is a least bad option.

Royalistflyer wrote

New imagery shows up to 12 Su-25 Frogfoot at Latakia.

https://www.stratfor.com/sites/defau...0-092115-B.jpg

PN, perhaps. I won't condone or condemn our approach in decades past, however our current approach is the result of lessons learned, and that I am extremely proud of.

Independent: Russia has deployed more than 28 military planes to Syria in recent days, claims US

http://www.independent.co.uk/incomin...620/syria1.jpg

Russia has deployed at least 28 combat aircraft to Syria and has started flying unmanned surveillance drones as part of a steady military build-up, US officials have claimed.

Amid mounting concern about the situation inside Syria and the civil war that has been millions of refugees flee the country, officials in Washington told reporters that Russia was increasingly the number of planes and helicopters. These included “Fencer” advanced-attack aircraft and “Frogfoot” jets, used for close air support.

Reuters said unidentified officials had said Russia was also flying drones on surveillance missions – Russia’s first military air operations inside the country. It is believed the drone operations have been flown out of an air base near Latakia, where it has moved other heavy military equipment............

Thats a moral objection, and you and I may or may not agree with it. But the facts of the matter is, in all out war the civilians are part of the strategic equation whether we like it or not.

Our compliance to such things has been patchy, depending on the circumstances and the risk reward ratio, hence condemning Assad is rather hypocritical of the west.

Governments have no responsibility what so ever for that, its a moral view point depending upon where you stand. Maybe the moral responsibility should be to do what ever it takes to end the situation as quickly as possible.

Whats worse, x amount of people killed brutally in a short amount of time, or 10x over a longer amount of time.

If Russia pulls the gloves off, it may be able to help. The strategy we are doing now is deeply flawed and hamstrung by politics.

Think about whats happening and the time constraint we are under!

The situation has been going on for over an year now, whats the birth rate, whats the indoctrination level in those areas. The fact is, children are being indoctrinated every day, females are probably being forced to spit out children like vending machines.

Even if we kill off the leadership, whats left behind will be a deeply indoctrinated population. Effectively we will have changed the mean level of extremism in the population,

Another words the potential for this to grow exponentially is a real possibility. At the end of the day, we need to be killing ISIS supporters etc in their thousands every day or weekly.

After the lies of Iraq, the waste of life in Afghanistan and the subsequent disorder across most of the middle east, children getting washed up on beaches, i fail to see how the US&A and ourselves have the brass neck to muster an opinion on what the Russians get up to.

@PP: You are 100% correct

As a matter of fact where did Russia ever screw up?

There were a bunch of dictators (north africa and middle east), treating their subjects horribly and subsequently overthrown. However, look what a mess it is now, much worse than it ever was before.

Lovely target.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CPfmbjwW8AARH6T.jpg

This has changed the whole balance of power in the Middle East.
Israel and Turkey can no longer strut their stuff with impunity.

And will Cameron still contemplate RAF drone strikes in Syria, never mind sending GR4s in? And how much will Obama pull his horns in?

CIA, MI6 and Mossad must be shipping MANPADs and ATGMs to the rebels right now. This will be Putin's Vietnam/Afghanistan, he is up against extremely experienced and hardened fighters. This is not Georgia or Crimea.

Already the Russian embassy in Damascus has been shelled. Which is just the beginning.

Democracy is over rated. It doesn't suit every nation. Stability and security are more important to unsophisticated societies. OK, Assad is not a nice guy, but what is the realistic alternative for Syria? Let the Russians have a free hand there, don't interfere and above all don't get sucked into any conflict there.

JSF
Re: post #27
Are you really sure our current ROE are as a result of lessons learned?

In WW2 if a Brit patrol saw some German troops they could open fire. This may kill the enemy troops for no loss of Brit life.

Our modern ROE could see that same patrol blown to pieces by an IED as they would have needed for the opposition troops to bring effective fire onto the Brits before fire could be returned.

Is it also progress that modern fighter aircraft with super duper BVR missiles, but no gun have to get WVR to engage opposition aircraft.

IMHO modern Western ROE are there to satisfy the media and politicians far more than to protect our forces.

Assad is fighting ISIS, Nusra Front, Free Syrian Army and small elements of the American backed and trained rebels. Putin is sending forces to support Assad which presumably will attack any forces which oppose him so that could lead to a situation where they bomb a group America backs. If that happens what will America do? Israel has also used the chaos to attack Syria so will they shoot down Russian aircraft if they defend targets against one of their attacks?

Flightline at Latakia. Su-30s and Su-25s.

http://i.imgur.com/RE6RuhZ.jpg

Hmm, didn't Nostradamus say something about the Eagle and the Bear joining forces to fight the Anti-Christ :-D

3,700 Russian military in Syria (that we know of).
Now actively engaged (allegedly):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlCh...ature=youtu.be

Bodybags?

Well, if they blow up some ISIS goons during this "many v many" fight, cool. That is an alleged purpose for them being in country. Who else they blow up is on the Russians, and on Assad. I think our folks can make sure to coordinate and stay clear, de-conflict, and watch what happens with sharp eyes. We don't want us shooting the Russians, or the Russians shooting us.

Does any of this remind folks of the Spanish Civil War? It sort of does and it sort of doesn't for me.

Man, I'd love to know what the phone conversations between Ankara and Moscow sound like lately.

Ecclectic. I would speculate that there is adequate low level communication if not coordination. While much has been made recently of Russian flights in to NATO air space, they have been doing it for decades, and we to them, and they almost always played by the same set of rules.