APO - what is the substantive rank?
 

After two years in UBAS in the 60s as a Cadet Pilot and after obtaining my Budgie Wings, I was commissioned as an Acting Pilot Officer.

I've been prompted to ask a question about the Acting part of my rank, after reading a marvellous biography of Bill Slim:

"Uncle Bill: The Authorised Biography of Field Marshal Viscount Slim" by Russell Miller.

It was of particular interest to me, because my Dad was a tank driver at Imphal.

I read that in 1944, Slim held the acting rank of Lieutenant General, but the substantive rank of Colonel.

After reading that, it made me wonder about the whole "acting rank" business and in particular, my rank. Since Pilot Officer is the lowest officer rank, and I was an APO, what was my substantive rank? Cadet Pilot or something else - AC?

During the second Chindit expedition Maj John Masters was for some time an acting Maj Gen, and for 6 hours or so a Lt Gen. He gave up earing badges of rank. He also became stepfather to Sir Michael Rose, and even more famous soldier

I42, you could have it right except you were awarded a commissioning scroll.

More akin to a Middy I guess.

Civvy ? :E ...... LFH

Pretty sure that your substantive rank is the one you are paid at, which would mean the substantive rank of an APO is APO! But I stand to be corrected on that. Definitely not AC - you ceased to be an AC the day you were commissioned.

TTN, correction, a number of flt lt were made acting sqn ldr when posted to international bullets and paid at the sqn ldr rate. I know some were then made substantive in tour or after.

The other substantive was the A/Cpl Unpaid RAFP - rank authority above their pay grade :).

In the case of Slim and others, you are getting involvement in the war substantive rank system, with its temporary, local acting, acting, substantive and war substantive ranks.

In the RAF the affect of this can be seen in the post-war regrading and rebadging of NCO aircrew and the wholesale reassessment of officers' rank, the former in 1946 and the latter in 1947 IIRC.

If you can find anybody who can explain the system and its funny bits in less than 10000 words, please put them in touch.

Finally, I was led to believe that 'Acting Pilot Officer' is actually a substantive rank - someone will quickly put me right if that's wrong!!

Old Duffer

Thanks everyone for a really interesting discussion.

So Acting is Substantive in my case? ;)

:D

Officer Cadet?

Simon - for RN flying training in the 50s/60s, including the various OFSs after Wings, IIRC it was usually here today and gone tomorrow if you were chopped or withdrew.

My late F-i-L started his WWII as a substantive Squadron Leader and ended the war as a newly promoted Flying Officer.

Lord Flasheart - can you expand on that - seems very odd

I believe that the "Acting" bit makes it easier to take away just in case they made a mistake at Officer Training........

For detail of the effect of aircrew rank read The Eigth Passenger by Miles Tripp. After VE Day many NCO aircrew veterans of the bomber offensive reverted to Aircraftsman to be ordered around by the likes of Corporal storekeepers.

OD, I42 ...

Someone has had a go here ...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_pilot_officer

Not quite the lowest!
 

When I was an APO we looked into this...it turned out the only 'commissioned' rank lower than APO was in fact a Midshipman! I did eventually reach the giddy heights of 'SPOSNI' - Senior Pilot Officer Scotland and Northern Ireland for a very short period. Over the next 34 years I didn't get much higher!

By PN, "More akin to a Middy I guess."

Midshipmen can be Commissioned. Not usual these days but thats a relatively modern situation since people started joining up slightly older, and often as graduates, hence only being a Midshipman for one year.

In the early 80s there was a well known photo in the national press of a Sea King at Culdrose being flown by its first ever all Midshipman crew; by definition all had passed out of BRNC and were Commissioned.

My knowledge is rather Army based [sorry about that] but I believe Substantive rank is/was the rank below which one could not be reduced without due process of Court Martial.

Substantive rank is your real rank and the rank with seniority that you are paid as. Acting Rank is precisely that acting (you still get the pay but your seniority is only in your substantive rank i.e. the one below whatever your acting as. The other funny one is local rank, you wear the badge but thats it, no pay or at least thats the way it used to be.

What was that other anomaly? If the boss (Wg Cdr in my case) was away and you were acting boss you got paid as such but it had to be a certain length of time. A month?

We had the SNOWMAN at Lossie.

Senior Naval Officer West Moray and Nairn. I seem to remember he worked in the sim whilst holding a reserve commitment. I guess he was SPOSNI's boss!

Happened to a late friend of mine who flew 18 sorties in Halifaxes, before crashing, on approach with 3 engines. Not sure if he was actually demoted (Flt Sgt) but at war's end he, along with other NCO aircrew were posted to St Athens awaiting demob.
The Flt Sgt (admin) who delegated them to carry out menial tasks around the Station told them that they weren't 'proper NCO's' in his view!
Shameful!

Exascot, that's substitution pay. You wear your own rank but get paid as if you were your boss' rank.

MOSTAFA - My experience is quite different. Substantive Flt Lt, 2 years as acting Sqn Ldr on various operations, return to being Flt Lt back in UK, get promoted and started on Sqn Ldr pay band 3. Time spend as a/Sqn Ldr counted for the incremental pay.

Perhaps probationary would be a better description of APO status.
My mate "Stan" had a similar problem to Todger in the tread RAF Pilot Tour lengths, etc in that his fiancée decided she didn't want to be an aircrew's wife. Now Stan had joined on the 8 / 12 scheme and was no longer acting. So Stan quits flying training....but he is signed up for 12 years.....off to the Isle of Man with you young boy shuffling papers. Very inconvenient when fiancée lives in South London, so he wants to resign. Right young man you may resign but you have not completed your National Service commitment so you will make up that time as a/c2 where ever we send you. Immediate change of heart....Please can I go back to Nav school? That's what happened but he won in the end, he got out after a little over 2 years but I think it cost him a bit.
So perhaps the substantive rank is a/c 2 even if you are no longer acting.

I once had to "fill in" for my boss while he was away for several months. There was no talk of acting rank, but the subject of "substitution pay" was raised.

My initial reaction was, "I'm not taking a pay cut..!" At the time my boss was a Sqn Ldr Engineer, while I was PA aircrew. However, there is apparently a rule to cover this sort of situation, covering for someone of higher rank but lower pay, and I eventually got a (very) modest pay increase for the extra work and responsibility while was boss was away.

Senior Naval Officer Leeming had SNOL below his hat peg in the mess. The NUAS tradition was to amend it to reflect the fact that the aircraft did most of their flying from Topcliffe.

In the 90s was known in the Army as POHR or pay of higher rank. At some stage in th 00s became known as substitution pay. The useful thing was that under afps 05 it was pensionable and counted towards "the highest amount earned over 12 months during your last 3 years of service" when calculating your pension.

Pontius navigator - I stand corrected. I remember the "green shield" squadron leaders on the shiny fleet who got their rank by virtue of sitting in the LHS of a VC10. Most of them kept it, I think, but I'm sure there were one or two highly p***ed off guys who had to revert to Flt Lt on posting to less glamorous aircraft!

In the 1980's the Canadian Navy started allowing women to serve at sea. Most were pretty good people but there was one quite highly obnoxious women LCdr supply officer.

She was frequently referred to as the "Senior Officer Females Afloat" :E

There is the story, probably apocryphal, about the Chief Officer WRAF, who complained to her senior that the acronym was offensive. The following day: "Henceforth the title Chief Officer WRAF is to be amended to Senior Officer WRAF".

Wander - He started off as a Chaplain (minimum rank Squadron Leader) about 1940 but remustered as an A P/O for pilot training (in Rhodesia) where he remained instructing (creamed off ?) for the duration. Back with his family in 1945 and demobbed as Flying Officer in 1946.

Don't even consider asking why he might have thought that G*bothering might have less effect than H**bombing in time of need. He returned to his previously chosen vocation after the war. I was late on the scene and there is not much in the way of family record.

We're in the process of getting his service record to examine the details. ........ LFH

TTN, indeed, one such I first met as an OpsO at ASI and later as 'the pilot' in the Nav School. He kept applying for a posting back to the shiney fleet but all they would offer was Andovers which he declined as Mrs ANS Pilot had a well paid job in in Retford.

Stuff, did you get 're-ranking allowance up, down and up again?

My step-father was an acting Flt Lt bomb aimer during WW2; on his return to the UK, as he chose to stay in, he was demoted to his sub rank of FSgt, sent on leave, then promoted to WO one month later when he got back to his Squadron.

A Navy friend of mine was briefly Senior Naval Officer Gulf (SNOG). Everyone found it funny except his wife.

Pontius.

You should have shared an office with the pilot,:p I did for 9 months. Not a happy bear. :E

Heads down, look out for the flak.

TTN There were many Flt Lts at BZN in my time with a big gap between the two stripes. I seem to remember that a posting to the OCU was not popular as you lost the little thin one in the middle. A certain Flt Lt PA (now AVM) had a Gp Capt in the jump seat when there was a flt deck visit. He was asked if he was going to take over for the landing. 'Good Lord', he said, 'no, I am a doctor'.

CL, I know. All he wanted to do was fly a plane. He was astonished when two US navs said we weren't bothered. What we wanted to do was fly to different places than where we had taken off from.

Only on the substantive. The others were for 4 lots of 6 month dets with no need for No 1s or 5s.

Mate of mine got acting rank (of sqn ldr) for a (3 year I think) exchange tour in the Middle East.

Went down to Flt Lt on his return, and took great delight in asking in the General Office (in a loud voice) "How do I claim a demotion allowance for re-ranking?"

Think he got it too! :ok:

Flasheart - thanks - there had to be a "story".