Queen's Birthday Flypast
 

Pathetic. All cancelled because of the weather except the Red Arrows. Surely if somebody can lead a nine ship formation through slight clag then why can't our supa-dupa air force with all the latest gizmos do it? It's not as if they were massive formations, five at the most. I can understand the worry about Spitfires and Hurricanes but Tornadoes and Typhoons? come on.

Are they so tied up with FMS that they can't do it if it cannot be programmed.

That really is a poor show, chaps. What happens if some of the Queen's enemies need killing and its a bit cloudy?

Surely different weather criteria were considered resulting in alternative plans ... very disappointing.

I wonder what the cloud base was. The Reds looked lower than usual. Perhaps special dispensation was given for them. Anyway, nothing to be ashamed of. It was a lovely finale to the days pageantry.

Odd too that the helos were still expected - was it just me, or did the TV cameras miss them? Was the problem for the others the cloudbase in the join-up area or somesuch? Disappointing certainly.

Deliveries of carrots to all sqns to commence immediately? Or a well timed political message?

I suppose it is not as simple as all that (although a poor advertisement I grant you).

Part-time flypast pilots/crews vs full-time display pilots (and the associated rules) may be some of it, weather in the join-up area and along the route, and diversion fuel requirements back at a poor-weather base with fewer weekend divs as well I expect.

Weren't the Reds doing it out of Biggin (or at least into Biggin) - that probably helped.

Never been involved with mass fly pasts. Who makes the decision?

Not easy for sure. Many factors to be considered.

Splendid ground display anyway. Something that no other country in the world can do with such precision and traditional ceremony.

Queen's Birthday Flypast
 

"Part-time flypast pilots"

True, they never fly in formation to make a timed arrival at a agreed ht. ✈️✈️

Background Noise,

You may well be right, but how do you think it looks to the masses when we're trying to justify spending millions training pilots and eye watering amounts on aircraft and who don't necessarily understand the nuances?

Or, playing Devil's advocate, what capability we have left is now operated in part by 'part timers', only good for gin clear conditions, using all weather capable ac that aren't all weather capable and can only operate when close enough to a base to refuel. Putin must be laughing.

Regardless of the reason, the RAF Corporate Comms desk best drop whatever they are doing right now and get a line out explaining the rationale before we are completely humiliated at home, abroad and viewed as a mere irritant by those we might seek to go up against one day. I can't even begin to imagine what they are saying on ArRSe right now.

i don't suppose any member of the general public will think twice about it. The Red Arrows ended the show with their impressive and colourful fly past over the Mall and the cheerful crowd. Everyone happy. Except on here of course.

Simple answer - WEATHER!!!!

The fast jet flypast normally forms up at Southwold and transits via Chelmsford to London. BBMF and the Egg beaters join up on the route after holding at Cambridge and doing a track around Stansted's approach area.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafi...665B79193C.pdf

The routes take the formations between Stansted and London City and puts the formation on an almost direct line on the Mall. There is no way that they can go south as that is the approach for London City and Heathrow, while access from the north is blocked by Stansted and Luton's approach patterns.

I checked the weather reports for the route at the time that the BBC said the majority of the flypast was cancelled. Most of the flight path over Essex, visibility was poor!!!! The Red's of course do formation flying day in / day out in the formation that they flew so they were happy to go at minimums, while everybody else were to be in mixed formations where they are not so used to formatting on the lead aircraft. BBMF, are of course are very much VMC only.

Queen's Birthday Flypast
 

Do you know what I think is pathetic? The whining on here.

The decision to cancel will not have been taken lightly. I flew in a QBF in 2006 and I remember the briefing well and the pressure to perform. The formation leader will have wanted to put on a show as much as the next man. However he/she will also have been aware of how bad it would have looked in the event of a weather abort into airspace or to put a jet into downtown London. Instead of being lambasted I think he/she is probably to be congratulated for having the balls to make the call. As someone has already said the weather over London is not the only consideration. Getting there from their marshall area may well have been the problem.

This is in no way reflects the military's capability to wage war on our enemies. Peace time flypasts over densely populated areas, beneath some of the worlds busiest airspace are not quite the same thing and don't carry quite the same importance.

If the Queen had wanted some bombs to be dropped on the Palace that could have been done regardless of the weather.

If our enemies ever ask for a mass flypast of their capital city in iffy weather and we are unable to comply then I will happily admit that our military has gone down the toilet.

Grow up please gentlemen.

BV

If today's route was to be much as in that for 2010 in that link then, sitting across the M11 from Stansted, I can vouch for its having rained/drizzled all morning. It is still doing so and the Stansted departures are in cloud from a relatively low level. So it does indeed look as if conditions over Essex, rather than Central London, put a clamp on the formation join-up.

BV

Well said! Nice to see everyone quick to criticise while sat in the comfort of their armchairs. There are certain VMC rules to follow as I'm sure all of the experts here are aware. A plan was made that today was unachievable, the weather wasn't even close for it to be legal. This was a peacetime display, not a wartime sortie to deny the enemy or indeed replenish troops on the ground.

BV
 

I have no doubt that you are 100% correct BV.


However, the GBP will be wondering how come they pay £70M for a Typhoon and god knows how much for C-17's and Voyager, and they can't make it for a flypast with all their nav aids/radars, and yet the Reds can in elderly jets?


I suggest they won't understand your very correct rationale.


A poor PR day for the RAF, albeit undoubtedly the correct decision-thanks for the explanation.

Queen's Birthday Flypast
 

111

As soon as someone explains to the public that the decision was taken for public safety reasons then the whole problem will go away.

Actually what I expect will have happened in London today is that everyone said "wow the Red Arrows, isn't the RAF amazing" and then promptly carried on with their day.

Terrain following radar and wonder jets weren't designed to carry out formation flypasts. They were designed to blow stuff up. Just like they are in Iraq. As we speak.

BV

About a half-hour ago a C47, with invasion markings, flew over my house here in Essex, heading north. The weather isn't too good and he was sculling below the cloud base. Wonderful noise, and just enough time to get outside for a wonderful view. Nice one, chaps.

BV - Well said.
Does anyone know how the Reds got their 9 ship down through that cloud to what seemed to be a pretty low base or did they transit from somewhere VMC below? Or should we perhaps not ask?

There is a BF109 at Biggin Hill at the moment, it's a shame they couldn't have substituted that at the last minute.. :p

View from Red1's jet. Weather looks pretty marginal to me.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHYrIZ-UkAEvSBH.jpg

IMHO a tough decision, but in the circumstances the correct one. The Leader may not have accolades from the man on the Clapham omnibus but he should have them from his/her boss. Good call.

QB Flypast
 

Well said BV!

To those whining about the poor perception of the RAF by the Great British Public, you should be ready to step in to say what a great job the Reds did to get there at all! The weather was right on the ragged edge but the C-in-C and her family (and all the rest of us) still got a fine show of red. white & blue.

Putting together a multi-type formation needs much better weather than today offered. Instead of bitching about it, do your bit to inform the GBP that the RAF can operate in poor weather, but over Central London is not the safest place to do it!

Come on guys - try to be positive! :ugh:

MaB

Fair play Bob Viking, and once again thanks for the explanation.


When you took part in the QBF, may I ask what you were flying if that's ok?


TO

Queen's Birthday Flypast
 

I was flying a Jaguar on the wing of a tanker. I can't remember if it was a Tristar or VC10. It was a special birthday, I believe it was her 80th. It was a pretty big formation. Of course some of the older guys on here will say it was piffling in comparison to the flypasts from the 50s etc. Anyone who's knows her age better than me can confirm if 2006 would have been her 80th.
BV

Sad, of course, but reality often intrudes into the best laid plans. Bloody shame, move swiftly on.

Mind you, when we had a real Air Force ... :rolleyes:

BV, correct, my MiL is a year older and we just celebrated her 90th.

Some pathetic comments on this thread.
The only officially IMC capable mass formation flypast I ever took part in was RAF 90, all others (QBF's etc) are "VMC". The decision to scrub will have been a bitter pill but, :ok: as I have seen some almighty cock-ups where pressonitis has occured.
Anyway, well done to all who flew or were scrubbed!:D

OAP

Timelord asked: Skill! :ok:

Lol...


Just glad she is still with us to see it, post Betty isn't something I relish, she is one of the last of what made us special, if that makes sense...

She seems to rise above all the worlds woes and outwardly appears to hold a neutral stance, neither commenting for nor against. Sadly something I see dying out with her generation.

Thanks BV-must have been a proud day.


Just seen this from the RAF Facebook page:


Well folks, that didn’t quite turn out as planned!


Sadly most of our aircraft due to take part in today’s Queen’s Birthday ‪#‎Flypast‬ were stood down due to ve...ry poor weather conditions in the holding and egress patterns outside London – the areas where our aircraft join up and then exit the flypast – and on the main route into London itself.


We know many of you were as disappointed as us that the full line-up wasn't able to fly through. It was a tough call; we have an all-weather capability on operations but quite rightly there are stricter rules governing displays over built up areas.


Fortunately the RAF Red Arrows had forward deployed from RAF Scampton to Biggin Hill Airport and were able to complete their part of the flypast; here they are roaring over The British Monarchy's Buckingham Palace to mark HM The Queen’s Official Birthday.

Well done the Reds! A classic example of why they are seen by the GBP as the face of the Royal Air Force, and of which I for one am very proud. :ok:

I was involved in the QBF in 98. It should have been cancelled before take off, but the leader didn't want to throw away the 3 months of planning and coordination that had gone into it. It resulted in a near miss between 4 jags and a Tristar (all IMC) directly over Buck House. There were two formal debriefs and an IFS investigation. The rules for multi aircraft flypasts are quite clear and the cloud base in particular gets more stringent the more ac involved.

Moving on ...

Anyone got a clue as to why HRH Prince Charles and HRH Prince William were wearing differing Pilot Brevets ? Clearly both are in Guards Dress uniform and both were trained/graduated from RAF Flying Training ... so why the difference :confused:

http://media.skynews.com/media/image...-1-960x720.jpg

Image Credit : Sky News

Just interested ...

Queen's Birthday Flypast
 

That press release almost looks like it was written after reading this thread! Big Brother may be watching.
BV

Coff

The Prince of Wales is the Colonel-in-Chief of the AAC, thus the reason for the army wings.

Playing devil's advocate here, and trying to see it as Joe Public sees it when all goes to plan. At the end of the parade when the royal party are up on the balcony what happens? A few very small formations of sundry aircraft come stooging down The Mall at a safe but not very exciting height. First you get a big one with a couple of little ones. Then maybe two big ones and two little ones. Then a few helicopters. Then maybe four little ones all the same shape and size. Oh and the BBMF (but for how much longer?).

Then you get the Red Arrows streaming red, white and blue smoke.

I'm guessing that this is the only bit of the flypast that really impresses anyone, unless they have a particular interest in military aviation. Frankly I doubt if many in the crowd today missed the cancelled aircraft, as at least they got to see the Reds. Is it all worth the three months of planning and coordination that handleturning describes?

Just sayin'!

Incidentally social media (twitter etc) is alive with chat about the Duchess of Cambridge's hat - obviously of much greater interest than the lack of a flypast!

POW Brevet
 

Looks like AAC, whilst DOC has an RAF brevet?

Thanks MJ ... Got the reason for AAC Brevet with HRH Prince Charles ... But as 111 mentions ... Why is the DOC seemingly at odds. HRH Prince Philip was also wearing AAC Brevet :confused:

I seem to have read a lot of misguided comment on here.
Perhaps the dissenters will take a comment from someone who was there when the BBMF was trying to depart for the QBF.

I had also been waiting to depart west for over 2 hours but the conditions were p.poor and I binned.
Btw, I'm also an ex-military pilot.

First of all, could it be that the BBMF are allowed to fly VFR only, unlike the Reds ?

The weather at White Waltham was pretty bad this morning with limited visibility and a generally low cloud base.

At the time the BBMF were trying to depart with a five ship, I estimate the cloud base was 400 to 700 feet variable with patchy light rain. The conditions were such that the leader cancelled because it was a job seeing the other guy whilst joining up.
The last aircraft was even aborted during his take-off.
It would have been dangerous and unprofessional to continue.

In my opinion it was a tough call in the circumstances but the correct one.