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Shackleton crash in Harris 1990
Next week on April 30th is the anniversary of a sadly fatal accident to an 8 Squadron Shackleton in Harris in 1990.
Has it been the subject of any previous discussion on Pprune? |
On 30 Apr 1990, I was attending a Flight Safety Officer's course at Adastral. During the welcome introduction, the senior officer giving the chat said "Well, it's been a good year so far, chaps, let's keep it that way. Mind you, perhaps I'd better not tempt fate - the last time I said that someone went and pranged. Anyway, enjoy the course!".
We started the course at 09:15, so it was probably at the very moment he'd been talking that WR965 Dylan crashed into the Isle of Harris at 10:37, killing the entire 10 man crew..... RIP |
When I did the SFSO course in 1992, the opening speaker made a point of not mentioning current accident rates. Enough Gods-tempting for one decade!Indeed, the course had a lot of emphasis on how you could do a perfect job as SFSO and still get screwed by the Norns.
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According to Google, they flew into a hill in Harris while reporting a position further south trying to get into Benny. Would have thought the Shackleton would have had the sort of nav equipment to make that kind of error unlikely?
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Well, I've certainly told a Shack where they were on several occasions (including in 1990), so they could tell me where I was!
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I once visited the GP surgery in Leverburgh, South Harris. He proudly displays an 8 Squadron Crest on the wall, presented to him in gratitude for help rendered at the time of the crash.
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Shackleton Loss
I was part of a 3 ship Hercules flight which was detached to Lossie for a tactical low level course on the 30th April 1990. We arrived in the afternoon after hearing of the SAROPS in the Hebrides.
We made our detached aircraft available to the Station on arrival and with the other staff crew members we flew the site guards and the BOI team into Stornoway. Each morning before carrying out the training sorties we would fly missions into Stornoway with equipment, supplies and personnel for the next 3 days. We had ex - kipper fleet crew members on the Hercs so it was harrowing for them too. R.I.P. |
Scotbill, sadly not. It was a 1950s aircraft updated with a 1940s radar and long range over ocean navigation equipment. It would have had the radar off and possibly out of Tacan range.
The only safe procedure was to remain clear of cloud or under radar control. |
This might shed some (sad) light:
ASN Aircraft accident Avro Shackleton AEW.2 WR965 Tarbert Narrative: On the morning of 30 April 1990, the crew of Shackleton AEW2 WR965 took off from RAF Lossiemouth to participate in a maritime exercise in the Benbecula area to the west of mainland Scotland. The exercise was to be in two parts with a time interval between. To make most economical use of the Shackleton's flying time it was intended to utilise the time interval to undertake some continuation training for which the crew had appropriate authorisation. Although the weather was forecast to be generally clear in the aircraft's operating area there were areas of low cloud and poor visibility over Scottish coastal areas. The first part of the sortie was completed without incident and at 09:45 UTC the crew took the opportunity to participate with a Tornado F3 in mutual training which required the Shackleton's radar to be set to standby/off. After completing this training, the crew commenced their own continuation training which was to include a visual approach to Benbecula airfield. The crew contacted Benbecula Air Traffic Control (ATC) at 10:25 UTC requesting permission for an approach, stating that they were about 20 miles west of the airfield; permission was given and Benbecula ATC passed their actual weather to the crew. Subsequent investigation determined, however, that the aircraft was actually 15 miles north of the position which it had reported at this time. At 10:30 two RAF personnel saw the Shackleton orbiting an island some 12 miles to the north of Benbecula airfield, and at 10:34 the Shackleton crew called Benbecula ATC stating that the weather was not sufficiently good for an approach and that they were turning right and climbing. At around 10:37 it struck the ground about 30 ft below the summit of an 823 ft hill on the Isle of Harris. Reliable evidence indicates that at that time and in that vicinity the cloudbase was 200 ft above mean sea level, with cloud tops at 3000 ft. At impact, the aircraft was in controlled flight with all four engines developing cruise power. CONCLUSION: "The Board of Inquiry concluded that the accident was caused because the aircraft was flown below a safe altitude in unsuitable weather conditions; the Board were unable to determine the reason for this." RIP Chas and the rest of the crew. Bloggs |
Colin Burns (co-pilot) and I were on the same flight on 90 IOT.
Wrong aircraft, wrong job, wrong place, wrong weather. Typical 'can do' RAF before integrated safety management. |
The Shack was supporting a joint maritime/air defence exercise involving Buccaneers from 12 Sqn firing TV Martel missiles at smoke floats which had been dropped by the unfortunate Shack. Once the smoke floats were in the water a Nimrod VASTAC'd the Buccs onto the target for the live firing.
All at the same time the F3's were tracking the martels to see if was possible or even likely that a cruise missle target could be engaged by the F3 system. It's not a coincidence that the Martels were being replaced by Sea Eagles at the same time as the exercise. It had been deemed that it was cheaper to fire them off into the Atlantic than to have them broken up and the nasty bits disposed of in an environmentally friendly way. I was on 12 at the time waiting for my QWI course to start, a very sad end to a jolly good jape! We lost some good lads on that one. |
There was a NE-3A supporting the exercise as well.
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However well we knew them, the aircraft was in IMC below Safety Altitude.
I was also a Flight Safety Officer in the RAF and there was much discussion around this time regarding Squadron and Station Execs flying as they were assessed as being more at risk due to being 'distracted' by their 'day' job and their flying skills being eroded by lack of practice. Safety altitudes were published in order that we didn't fly into cumulo granite in the Queen's or someone else's aluminium. RIP guys, still a sad day, whatever the cause - human or otherwise. |
OC Ops, while a qualified navigator was not qualified on the Shackleton. The 1st NAv was not navigating at the time.
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My old lead dry was on it...RIP. As I recall there was a lot of fall out regarding the way the outfit was run and the lack of oversight.
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Indeed, my vague recollection is that a few stones were turned over and the way 8 Sqn had evolved as a standalone entity was subject to criticism. Certainly key members of the normal operating crew were not at their usual stations.
Looking back, the crash reminds me of the JATE C130 low flying incident at South Cerney where there was also a view cast as to how supervision of a unique unit had diverged from the norm; excellent flight safety and flying supervision lessons that should still be taught. I've been to too many funerals brought about by pilots ramming the ground. The memorial is one of the most beautiful and fitting I know. http://www.aircrashsites-scotland.co...-moadal-40.jpg |
TOFO, was that Roger Scutt? Top bloke and I can tell you from first hand experience.
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Yep,
In the early eighties he was my lead when we went through MR2 conversion. I was second dry and third was a very good mate who went on to become a fairly controversial fast jet pilot (won't be giving any names) long since departed for the airlines. The two of us ran old Roger, and everybody else, ragged and he put up with it with immense good grace. Top bloke, sadly missed. The memorial is one of the most beautiful and fitting I know. |
The sadness of this aircraft's loss continued long afterwards.
The widow of a crew member married another RAF officer the following year. Unfortunately, he died in 1998 and so the lady's 'new life' was short. O-D |
TOFO, thank you see PM
OD, can you tell me who in PM please? |
It was terribly sad: OF Ops was a family friend and my mother taught one of OC8's children at that time. A huge loss for a squadron that despite its machines seemed invulnerable. I walked passed a few of their graves t'other week when up in Lossie.
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Originally Posted by The Old Fat One
(Post 8956380)
..the emotional context is quite heavy when you pass by somewhere like that.
It was commemorating the crash site of a Lancaster crew that had crashed there on a training flight. Another car had stopped and the two young men using the memorial for another purpose were very embarrassed when Mrs PN and I stopped. |
Yes, you can find such small memories everywhere. This one commemorates Mike Andrews and Steve Todd at Shap
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I was sat in my office at RAF Spadeadam thinking about lunch when I got a call from my wife telling me that an RAF aircraft had crashed in the Outer Hebrides with 10 on board. Something told me it was an 8 Sqn Shack a Squadron I had left 2 years before. So sad to lose so many friends and the RAF to lose 10 good men. RIP guys.
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Pontious,
PM sent as requested. O-D |
IIRC the OC8 Squadron was the brother in law of David Sole, the then Scotland rugby union captain.
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Jacanda, gaggers?
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rolling 20,
Correct. OC 8 had a Nimrod pedigree and had ejected from a JP during training. It might have been that the injuries sustained in that accident did not permit him to fly on an ejection seat but this is just my musing and I have no evidence for that. O-D |
OD, he was our co on Nimrods. His size might have ruled out FJ.
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There will be a memorial service for Gambia 08's crew at the Alpha Hangar, RAF Waddington at 1000 tomorrow 30th April. Names need to be with the Sqn Assn Secretary by tonight. (Sorry for the late call - I only just found out myself).
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BBC Scotland news article. More lazy journalism( Maritime Patrol,8 Sqd.)
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Uncanny.
Originally Posted by BEagle
(Post 8954833)
On 30 Apr 1990, I was attending a Flight Safety Officer's course at Adastral. During the welcome introduction, the senior officer giving the chat said "Well, it's been a good year so far, chaps, let's keep it that way. Mind you, perhaps I'd better not tempt fate - the last time I said that someone went and pranged. Anyway, enjoy the course!".
We started the course at 09:15, so it was probably at the very moment he'd been talking that WR965 Dylan crashed into the Isle of Harris at 10:37, killing the entire 10 man crew..... RIP Uncanny and tragic. My father was on that plane. Squadron Ldr Jerry Lane. I was 14 at the time, and still feel a slump in my day to day life approaching the date. I have so many questions about the accident, but not sure I want or need to know more. I know my Dad was doing a job he loved and with people (as far as I know) he was bonded to. I loved those aircraft too, and am glad for vids of those engines starting up or flying over. Really makes me feel like a happy/sad kid again. Love and Respect to all involved in 8 squadron and RIP Dylan crew. |
Originally Posted by screws4jets
(Post 10112506)
QUOTE=BEagle;8954833]On 30 Apr 1990, I was attending a Flight Safety Officer's course at Adastral. During the welcome introduction, the senior officer giving the chat said "Well, it's been a good year so far, chaps, let's keep it that way. Mind you, perhaps I'd better not tempt fate - the last time I said that someone went and pranged. Anyway, enjoy the course!".
We started the course at 09:15, so it was probably at the very moment he'd been talking that WR965 Dylan crashed into the Isle of Harris at 10:37, killing the entire 10 man crew..... RIP Uncanny and tragic. My father was on that plane. Squadron Ldr Jerry Lane. I was 14 at the time, and still feel a slump in my day to day life approaching the date. I have so many questions about the accident, but not sure I want or need to know more. I know my Dad was doing a job he loved and with people (as far as I know) he was bonded to. I loved those aircraft too, and am glad for vids of those engines starting up or flying over. Really makes me feel like a happy/sad kid again. Love and Respect to all involved in 8 squadron and RIP Dylan crew. |
Hi.
Originally Posted by Pure Pursuit
(Post 10112646)
Hi everyone,
Uncanny and tragic. My father was on that plane. Squadron Ldr Jerry Lane. I was 14 at the time, and still feel a slump in my day to day life approaching the date. I have so many questions about the accident, but not sure I want or need to know more. I know my Dad was doing a job he loved and with people (as far as I know) he was bonded to. I loved those aircraft too, and am glad for vids of those engines starting up or flying over. Really makes me feel like a happy/sad kid again. Love and Respect to all involved in 8 squadron and RIP Dylan crew. Apologies, I’m new to this forum. Not sure where I would receive a PM? My email, or does my user name have an inbox? |
No independent Fatal Accident Inquiry carried out because of the Scottish system. Similar accident over England or Wales would have resulted in an inquest. BoIs and SIs are simply MoD in-house inquires; much like marking your own homework.
DV |
Is it really 28 years since this happened?
I have kept quiet about this accident for a long time, as Jerry had been a good friend and mentor of mine. He was the nav 1 on the first crew I joined on 205 Sqn in Singapore, and for a brief period he was my Captain (or I was his 1st Pilot) on 8 Sqn. In my own opinion the seeds of this accident were sown when 8 Sqn formed, and despite the best efforts of the front end crews - almost all ex maritime - all the old Coastal Command/Maritime SOPs, which had been produced through experience and trial and error (and accidents) over the previous decades, were rejected by the AEW side of the Sqn as unnecessary (they were used to flying in the Gannet at greater heights without any of the 'peculiarities' of the Shackleton); not only unnecessary but on AEW Course 1 the new AEW leader (ex RN) with no Shackleton experience stated that his operators would not apply any of them nor recognise them. One of the major ones was the SOP for the radar operator to call 'land on track' (normally at 4 miles) just in case the Nav was otherwise occupied - this was deemed an unnecessary distraction by him and WOULD NOT BE DONE, Besides, AN/APS 20(i) was not configured to see land!! However. all the guys I flew with seemed to be able to do so, even at relatively short range. However, this did not mean it was not done - a quiet agreement on a crew normally led to it being called, although never when he was on board - but as it wasn't policy, with new crews it slowly died out anyway. Of course, although an SOP similar to this might have prevented it, this was never mentioned at the BoI. There was criticism certainly of some of the ways the Sqn had evolved, but in the end most of the blame went towards the crew. I should stress this is my own opinion, but as a founder member of the Sqn I was deeply saddened by the accident and the loss of some good people. screws4jets if you wish to get in touch please PM me. |
Screws4jets, Condolences for your loss and the hole it has left.
Intuitively I would advise you to let sleeping dogs lie, but I'm no counsellor. If you do feel the urge to do a little digging, maybe talk it through with a trained professional first? |
Shackman,
Check your PMs. CC |
Hi shackman,
Thanks for your reply. Your opinion is an interesting insight, and nice to hear you worked with my father. I was recently visiting my Mother in the old family home near Forres and I visited Kinloss air museum with my daughter. Home is enough to trigger memories, but the air museum, especially the smell, and chatting with the guys working there really brought memories flooding back. Thanks again I might just PM you. All the best. |
Originally Posted by The Old Fat One
(Post 10113373)
Screws4jets, Condolences for your loss and the hole it has left.
Intuitively I would advise you to let sleeping dogs lie, but I'm no counsellor. If you do feel the urge to do a little digging, maybe talk it through with a trained professional first? Thanks for your advice. I agree but it seems I can’t help poking that old black dog from time to time! I’m fine really (honest!) It was my wife, who is a mental health nurse, that noticed my behaviour and joined up the dots. She may have a point, or perhaps I just hate spring! Thanks again, all the best, Jeremy |
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