Ex Service Personnel Excel
 

Or so says Tony Ward, Force10 Recruitment and Doncaster College and University Centre Governor (no, I don't know either). He might have added, "Very few left, get them now or miss out".

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-e...0ZWCY8RFD8fmA1

Er, if that's the case why are so many of them homeless, destitute or in prison?
By a far greater percentage than ex forces folk constitute of the population.

Something not right...

Some even become lawyers :eek:

Roadster280,

Yep, and it's in that capacity that I try to help.

Got a problem with that?

proone:-
I agree, and I suggest that the 'Something not right...' is that too many employers have no experience of, or know no-one with experience of, Service life and values. On the contrary, too many perhaps have been weened on the Peaceniks' agenda of being 'against war' and those whose duty it is to conduct it.
Leaving the RAF after a mere 13+ years, the culture shock that I experienced was not helped by being accused of being a mercenary and a hired killer by a couple who were friends of friends. That they were both teachers was purely incidental I guess...anyway, that was way back in the 70's, so it's quite different today I guess, isn't it? Isn't it?

Civvies are expected by their management to always have one eye on their next job, it's seen as disloyal when you serve though. Consequently, two days resettlement briefing and some rather prescriptive training linked to what you did is pretty pointless and quite possibly immoral. I wanted to become a roof thatcher, a dry-stone waller or a stockbroker and consequently, left with the offer of erm, no help.

The Americans pre-release screen for things like PTSD and that's how it should be. Although I worry that we sometimes polarise things and either over emphasise negative stereotypes or eulogise, we can run the risk of stigmatising ex servicemen when the problems have already manifested themselves. The culture of preparing our men and women for civvy street should begin when they join, not just before they leave.

To which you replied, with menacing stare: "You shouldn't speak like that to people you don't know!" :cool:

Anyone else remember that awful "Access to Excellence" video of 1993! I have a copy, but no VHS player now. Shame......................

perhaps you could give your post a little credibility with a link continuing some viable statistics.

It sounds like complete arse to me, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

pr00ne,

You know as well as I do that it was a cheap dig at you. But I know you can take it, because you are ex-forces, the same as me, and it's a skill we acquired in our service.

For the record, no, I have no problem with that, and if your posts are helpful, thank you. For the ones that aren't, well, there's always the cheap dig :ok:

Basil:
All sorts of replies come to mind, but SWMBO was sitting opposite and taking it out on my shins under the dining table as an encouragement to change the subject!

You are right of course, they were foolish to mess with a highly decorated (1 GSM) cold war hero, but that rather makes AlR's point that stereotypes ill serve anyone, be they serving, ex-Service, or civilians alike.

I think "compliant" would be more accurate.
Along with the old "can do" forces personnel are open to manipulation by unscrupulous managers.
Usually the managers with the narcissistic personality defect....


:(

TOFO,

I have heard comments similar to those posted by pr00ne before, reference the number of ex military in prison, homeless, etc...

A very quick internet search produced this:

Why so many ex-soldiers end up in prison

If you go about the 7th paragraph it says that about 1 in 10 prisoners is an ex soldier.

A similar 1 in 10 statistic quoted here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-after-2071049

How accurate these articles are, I couldn't say.

Used to be said (not many years ago), not sure how valid now, that one in four people on the streets in London were ex-services

It’s not quite as simple as Mr Ward suggests. There are certainly occasions when an ex-services person will be the ideal candidate, but there are just as many occasions when the military ethos is a major disadvantage in the commercial world. In terms of individual drive, being results driven and giving one’s all, military training is excellent preparation but that is not the whole story. Often in the commercial world you are forced to work with people many grades above you who are not burdened down with a massive intellect or a comprehensive understanding of the task, but to point this out only makes the situation worse. If you have no concept of playing politics with subordinates or superiors, it will often bite you at annual review time. A bit like those of us who used to think “Bloggs does not suffer fools gladly” was a compliment, instead of realizing it meant you were self-serving and intransigent.

In my experience, the smaller and more agile the organization, the easier it is to utilize previous military experience. People who run or control their own businesses often have a much more focused view on how to exploit the capabilities of an employee, and the employee can see the benefits of their contribution more readily than if they were in a large corporation. It really is horses for courses in most cases, which is why I shudder as the sweeping generality that ” …employing Ex Military personnel is great for business”. Did Mr Ward never meet an absolute tool in the military, because I know I did. Transition to civvy street would not have improved any of these dullards, only voluntary euthanasia could have really helped them. Some people really were truly career limited at whatever rank they made it to, and nothing in the commercial world will ever change that.

Some of my sharpest colleagues are and have been prior military, and some of the people who have been moved on have also been prior military. Like most of life it comes down to the individual and how they choose to exploit and sell the valuable skills the military invests in them. It’s always going to come down to the interview or the recommendation, hiring somebody solely on the strength of prior service is a gamble I would be unwilling to take. Mr Ward isn't totally wrong, but he is wrong to think “Ex military” is a valid employment group without further and extensive qualification.

While I think "Two's In"'s comments are perfectly valid regarding the variability of individuals in the armed forces, I don't believe that Tony Ward is saying anything that doesn't apply to the majority of servicemen with long and good service records. I don't believe that he is overstating the case.

My list of what one is less likely to experience with ex-service people is long but here's a few;

1. Clock watching.
2. Marking time.
3. Turning up but not contributing
4. Avoiding issues
5. Passing the buck
6. Dissent and internal disturbance

I have employed a lot of ex-services over the years (I am one myself). Yes I have had some regrets, but on the whole I have been very satisfied with their application to the task and their willingness to learn new skills rather than just bluff their way forward. Sometimes they will be more forthright in their opinion than a civilian equivalent, but the origins of that are probably prior necessity of circumstances, and I would rather have someone say what they think than avoid responsibility for an impending train wreck...

FWIW

Don't reply to him you fool! He's charging £200 per minute for his responses to you:eek:

rmac,

I'll give you 6; other than a few grumbles I haven't really seen much in the way of internal disturbance in my career. But the others are unfortunately alive and well in a lot of military personnel!

In terms of clock watching, we've all been on a squadron where face time was the order of the day. I've seen units that work people to the bone, and when not required to fly or carry out additional duties, there was still a blanket "be in 0800-1700" rule. Modern businesses are finding out in their droves that this isn't an effective way to manage people. Your capable worker who can pour out staff work at 70 words per minute just starts to resent it; being graded and measured by time in work, rather than work produced! Cue lots of clock watching.

4 and 5 are absolutely rife nowadays. With the degree of competitiveness for decent flying jobs and/or promotion, I find myself working with lots of people who are terrified of making a mistake or being seen to make one.

People are right that the decisiveness and drive you need to do well in the military will serve you well outside. If you're trained to make near-instant, life or death decisions as an aviator, well, that always sounds good at an interview! There's a lot of dross still in, though, in some places; and the sad thing is it's them who tend to stay in...!

The Independent has done quite a bit of campaigning for ex servicemen and women. From yesterday:

Homeless Veterans Appeal: Stephen Fry backs The Independent's campaign - Homeless Veterans - Campaigns - The Independent

Hey Biggus,

thanks for the links...I read them both.

Leaving aside the contention over the statistics and that both sides have vested interests, I'll willingly agree that young soldiers leaving in their twenties after combat ops will be vulnerable to economic hardship and all that that entails (including crime). Why that should be a surprise to anyone would be a mystery to me...and much of it would be to do with their expectations and education before they joined up. Half a dozen years as an over worked, over exposed fighting soldier is not really going to add anything to their economic value when they leave is it?

I think this is red-herring (and therefore a troll by pr00ne) because...

It is specific to tradeless young soldiers, not the wider military (OK, somebody will find and exception, but you get my point).

And, the thread is about the value that quality that highly trained servicemen and women (ie most of us) bring to the commercial world...which is exactly in line with my experience.

Since we have dived down this rabbit hole, could I point out that casting aside ones fighting soldiers has been going since the Romans invented professional armies and is is hardly unique to the UK. Does not make it right though.

TOFO,

As an aside, and for what it is worth, the Romans actually looked after their retiring professional soldiers very well!!



I can provide supporting evidence if you'd like! ;)

That's certainly true, biggus. TOFO I very much agree with all the positives you presented re. Ex mil types. But the fact remains many ex military people DO encounter serious problems after they leave. Denying this or accusing proone of trolling for highlighting the fact does them a serious disservice.

The other end of the scale has problems too, caused by the high skill level of ex-mil types. HR runs a mile these days from people whose performance will show everyone else up, and who won't ignore dangerous and/or illegal practices.

Crikey, I know some of us are getting on in years but I didn't know we had Roman Veterans on the network!

ACW

It must be tough for men who leave the Army and the Army cocoon, and step outside the gate for the last time and into the cold grey Britain of the day. I can easily see how you could end up sleeping in the streets and it always sends a shudder down me when I see these poor buggers, around London in particular.
A lot of lads were good guys but spent their time in the forces, I mean they spent their money on wine, women and song and leave with little in a material sense. It happens. If you have no family or network at that point, and limited skills then you could be really sunk.


On thread, sorry I have to say I have met people in the military, I truly wonder how on earth they got by back in civvy street, and where they ended up working. Some of the pompous Naval officers I worked with at Yeovilton (and in particular FONAC/FONA for Christ's sake, remember that mob), God help any civvy business or organization that took them on, is all I can say.

I think you've lost the thread old chap (no pun intended).

This thread is about service people excelling when they leave - which they do.

Pr00ne (not PPruNe) trolled it IMO by implying that this is not generally the case because of the large of troubled cases of ex -servicemen in society. I don't and never have disputed some sections of the military have problems fitting back in to civvy life. In terms of the overall number of people this affects against the overall number who excel when they leave, it is a tiny, tiny percentage...which it my mind makes his post mischief-making ie a troll.

If you want to have thread specifically about problems affecting ex-servicemen and women when they leave go ahead and start one...I'm sure it will be lively and interesting.

As would a debate on the Roman military :ok:

Just as a tangential thought: I wonder how many of those ex servicemen who have found themselves in difficulties on leaving would have found themselves in difficulties had they never joined? Perhaps some sections of the armed forces attract certain psychological profiles.

I have no evidence for this, just thinking out loud.

^^ Amongst other things that's kinda my point too. It's become very fashionable on social media for military types to promote each an every example of a servicemen gone wrong as an attack on the military covenant...I find this sad and misleading. Of course there are unfortunate cases, but they are rare. There are also cases that are just plain law breaking by bad asses - also rare.

I know personal experience means very little, but anyway...I know somewhere in the region of a thousand ex comrades who served with me...I don't know a single one that has ended up on the streets or in prison (I do know three that went to prison whilst they were still in, and rightly so). The vast majority are doing well - quite a few of them have very brightly burning stars.

Try and read beyond the headlines - be supportive when it a genuine hard luck story, not when is just some bad egg trying to play the victim. And keep perspective...the vast majority of servicemen and women do well when they leave for a reason...the reason is their military service has made them into who they are - top people.

I am ex air farce (rigger) and I think as others have alluded to - ex forces with a skill/trade/specialist knowledge should do ok in civvy street.
The company I work for employs fairly large numbers of ex forces - how they fare probably largely depends on their individual personalities rather than any forces skill set !
As others have alluded to - those with no trade/skills and or those with PTSD may well struggle and also as Thing posted - a percentage of those who struggle may well have done so anyway - with or without time in the forces

There are a couple of threads within this, err, thread.

One is about the ease (or otherwise) of SP moving into civilian jobs; the other is the issue of ex SP allegedly over-represented in Prison and homeless populations.


Let's look at the the first issue. Most ex SP quite happily manage the transition to civilian employment; additionally the transition assistance these days is pretty good - and flexible (unless you have the misfortune of serving in Germany). Furthermore, SP leaving are not some monolithic block of ex-Council Estate semi-literate 'Squaddies'. This bloc ranges from young soldiers just in their 20s to very senior, very experienced people, perhaps touching 60. No other industry would consider this as one target population.

On the second point of prison and homeless populations (and I have posted similar comments here before). I had a long chat with a very senior executive of a well-known Service charity, a year or two ago, about this issue. He believed that the figures were grossly inflated, due to a degree of opportunism. It is apparent that claiming to be ex-SP garners a degree of sympathy and support that one wouldn't receive if they were, say, ex truck drivers. Many of the homeless cases who claim to be ex SP are - perhaps a brief time in the TA, perhaps never completed basic training or left because of discipline or suitability issues. Same amongst the prison population, apparently.

That's not denying that there may be an issue and again, overwhelmingly, those who are legitimately ex Forces are overwhelmingly ex Army. Statistically this is likely; statistically, given the background of many of these people is that they are more likely to end up in prison if they had not been in the Army. I'm not saying that's right - it isn't, but it is a fact.

Again, if you come from a disrupted family background, with low familial expectations, poor performance at school, perhaps a history of petty crime and drug-taking before enlisting (accepted by recruiters these days) perhaps it isn't surprising that some - only some - might turn to criminal enterprise when they leave the Army. We should celebrate the social mobility that a career in the Forces offers. I can't think of any other career field that can offer such opportunities.

It's one thing to suggest the transition is difficult, and it can be, but it's another to stigmatise servicemen and women though generalisation creep.

Many emotional orphans are drawn to a life with the military family and that can suggest that people joining have a particular mindset at outset that doesn't help when rejoining the harsh reality of chivvy street. It's true too, that circumstances can create a massive hurdle to jump over (I was on gardening leave for 12 months and the assumption was that I was left to fester by the RAF before discharge).

There is almost entirely an entire charity sub-sector out there, 'helping' ex servicemen and pointing to stats to justify their employment. Much of it (not all, not by a long chalk) is complete bolleaux - the need is more a reflection on those hand rubbing professionals offering 'help' than on the intended, or trawled for, recipients. The flattening out means that those who genuinely do need the most care are overlooked and almost disadvantaged as they're stirred into the vanilla yoghurt with the more noisy and more mildly sick, lame and of course, the lazy.

I always thought that somewhere like Bicester would make a fabulous resettlement centre. I think too, that some ex servicemen and women have been too prescriptively and too sharply the focus of a dogma of 'helping' to get people back into civvy street . Some simply don't want to return to civvy street - what is so wrong with consideration of long term accommodating those who are more vulnerable and who feel more comfortable living within the structure of a military environment whilst still working in civvy street? The transition experts don't tend to look in shop doors at 0330.

This is the winning question. Many 17 and 18 year olds headed for the army as grunts would be headed for criminality if not for the discipline they encounter. When that's gone...

CG

Parris Island is the USMC Recruit Depot

.. great lyric.

"We met as soul mates
On Parris Island
We left as inmates
From an asylum
And we were sharp
As sharp as knives
And we were so gung ho
To lay down our lives

We came in spastic
Like tameless horses
We left in plastic
As numbered corpses
And we learned fast
To travel light
Our arms were heavy
But our bellies were tight

We had no home front
We had no soft soap
They sent us Playboy
They gave us Bob Hope
We dug in deep
And shot on sight
And prayed to Jesus Christ
With all of our might

We had no cameras
To shoot the landscape
We passed the hash pipe
And played our Doors tapes
And it was dark
So dark at night
And we held on to each other
Like brother to brother"

Admirable sentiments but looking at it from another angle; let's find someone who is emotionally vunerable and has difficulty coping with everyday life and give them a rifle. Sounds insane doesn't it?

Fair point - I didn't express myself well, I meant post career. We have scores of decent barrack blocks in unused, well situated sites that could offer the type and feel of sheltered and structured housing that many ex servicemen and women want. They don't want to, or benefit from, being flung into sheltered housing in towns and cities where they are almost compelled, because of social services imperitive and political dictat, to live with people with whom they have nothing in common, who they want to have nothing to do with and where they do not flourish.

Got a violent misfit? Take him out of normal society, and train him to be violent to people we don't like - makes a lot more sense phrased that way!

(n.b., this certainly used to be the approach when Britain had an empire)

Al R, good points well made.

Certainly when I joined up I had chiefs who were given the choice when they were young men of Borstal or the forces. Or as one said to me 'I chose the forces but I'm sure they sent me to Borstal.'

TOFU: "I think you've lost the thread old chap...this thread is about service people excelling.."

Au contraire, TOFU, If anything it's you who has lost sight of what a discussion forum is; somewhere to debate and argue for and against a particular point. Disagreeing isn't trolling.

Fair enough. I'll except that.

More than made my point and debate about what is and is not trolling will add nothing but boredom.

QED