People. This was the Latin American equivalent of April Fool. Can we just kill it?

http://www.blackgate.com/wp-content/...akes-lucy1.jpg

Argentina Ramping up as we dumb down - 1982 all over again ?

Argentina set to sign deal for Chinese corvettes

Interesting about the focus on ASW,

Visiting Beijing between Feb. 3-5, President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner of Argentina is set to sign an agreement with China to increase the military-to-military cooperation between two nations, according to the UK-based Jane's Defence Weekly.
Under the agreement, China North Industries Corporation will help Argentina produce a version of the VN1 wheeled armored personnel carrier, while China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation will help develop various types of naval ship.
China is understood to have introduced five of its P18 export corvettes to Argentina. A source from the Argentine government said the vessels are estimated to cost US$50 million each.
Known as the Malvinas-class after the Argentine name for the Falkland Islands, the five offshore patrol vessels each carry a 76 mm main gun, two 30 mm cannon, eight anti-ship missiles and two triple torpedo launchers. The 1,800-tonne ship can also carry a medium-sized helicopter. Argentina has requested a larger flight deck to handle its Sea King helicopters and towed sonar to increase the vessel's anti-submarine capability. Two of the corvettes will be built in China while the other three will be co-produced in Argentina. The P18s may be delivered started in 2017 according to Jane's.
If the agreement is signed as expected, it should be considered a major step in Argentina's efforts to revive its military power with help from China. The agreement may also help China open a new market to export its military aircraft.
Source: China Times.

Also interesting is the rapid delivery dates mentioned.

talks about talks...............

China to supply Argentina five "Malvinas Class" offshore patrol vessels ? MercoPress

MP is quite good on the Argentinians

" Since the 1982 Falklands War, China has expressed its support for Argentina's continued claims over the Falklands, which Beijing compares to its claim over Taiwan. However, China's willingness to accept commodity payments to finance initial loans that fund military sales has been key to its military sales success in Argentina.

In 2011 the Fábrica Argentina de Aviones (Argentine Aircraft Factory: FAdeA) reached an agreement to start co-producing China's Changhe Z-11 light helicopter. Then, in June 2013, FAdeA sources told IHS Jane's that talks over co-production of the Chengdu FC-1 lightweight jet fighter had occurred over the previous two years.


This option appears to have been lost as Argentina has tried and failed to purchase retired Dassault Mirage F1 fighters from Spain, then refurbished Israeli Aircraft Industry Kfir fighters and, in late 2014, Saab Gripen fighters co-produced in Brazil.


However, the new Argentine-Chinese defense agreement could revive prospects for combat aircraft co-operation. In addition to the FC-1 fighter, China could offer low-cost combat-capable supersonic lead-in trainers like the Guizhou JL-9G/FTC-2000G or the Hongdu L-15."

Maybe we should be buying from China also. We can call them Thatcher Class. We are paying £348 million (US $584 million) for three OPVs armed with nothing more than a spud gun.

BAE, UK Government Settle Agreement on New Patrol Vessels | Defense News | defensenews.com

Old rubber face Kircher is getting 5 for $50 mill each and packing more heat than a Type 23.:{

they're purely to keep people in work

but in general we never seem to be able to get as many armaments on a vessel as other people

"they're purely to keep people in work"

If thats the case how about this.
Option A - Buy 6 armed to the teeth foreign built OPVs/Corvettes for about $300 million.
That leaves $284 million in the pot. Bus the ship yard workers the 45 mins to Rosyth and put them to work on the Carriers. Net result -twice as many OPVs, Carriers delivered early, skilled workforce retained, and money left in the Jar to pay for the Navy s Increased need to fund more Flight deck cocktail parties every weekend.

Option B -Buy 6 armed to the teeth foreign built OPVs/Corvettes for about $300 million. Give each BAE shipworker a mega golden hand shake and tell them to do one. With the remaining $200 million give it to India to pay towards their P8 MPA program. Simples

So to those who dismissed the proposed Su-24 deal between Russia and Argentina as a Latin American April Fools, any suggestions as to how/why it's come up again?

Argentina and Russia In Strategic Partnership Deal

Probably because the story continues to chug along in much the same vein, and the phrase "Among them could potentially be a deal for..." suggests that substance-wise things remain pretty much where they were. I've not been one putting this in the April Fool category, but I'll take more interest if and when the fine words show real signs of translating into buttered parsnips.

Totally off topic but I came across an article somewhere that Argentina reached advanced stages in buying 12 used Vulcan bombers in 1978, but it was blocked at the last minute. The irony is amazing.

They were actually two Vulcan bombers.

The british files that show the interest of the argentinean air force have been uploaded to the web for no less than three years now.

No deals have been sealed in Russia this time. Fear not.

CAW, can you recall where you saw that, I only read about it on a museum website which was only about a one sentence comment, and was interested in knowing a bit more about it?

Sure, my friend. Here it is:

Reemplazo de los legendarios Canberra | Página 4 | Foros Zona Militar

Page 4, post 69.

:ok:

If the Chinese are prepared to accept payment in corned beef, then good luck to them. If the Argentine treasury was given a dollar for every speculative story about a new fighter/warship they might have enough money to keep their existing ships from the repo-man.

Thanks, that's a very interesting read. They were actually after 6 to 12 Vulcan in 1982 of all years. Imagine if they had been sold them, might have made a difference to the outcome of the war and who knows they might still be in service.

Yes, we might have had to use what we had (Nimrod, better systems, more range and sensible bombload) for Black Buck instead. I would have been interested to hear the results of a Sea Harrier v Vulcan combat.....:D

I believe that the events were already overtaking the introduction of the Vulcan into Argentine service, had agreement been reached.

This weekend I will be seeing an engineering Argentine officer who would have been part of the team that would have involved in this purchase, he previously had been involved in the Dagger acquisition from Israel (and a very interesting story that is too - for example they had asked all the aircraft to be stripped and repainted - they did the first and the rest were just overpainted). I will see if I can find out more.

AndySmith wrote

IAI Dagger wreckage in the Falklands showing the remains of the Israeli IAI Nesher markings.

http://modelingmadness.com/review/mod/fr/calmp3e.jpg

Air Pictorial, I think it was, had some images of the following Dagger cockpit section? The Israeli "kill" markings were visible on the side where the paint had flaked off.

Falkland Islander Finds Wreckage Of A Fighter Jet - tribunedigital-orlandosentinel

Would I be correct in assuming that the deal to buy some Kfirs from Israel has gone bust?

It seems not...
Argentina in negotiations for Israeli Kfir fighters

I would've thought the US would put the bung in on that one?

-RP

It ain't the US poking him in the eye with oil prices, it's the Saudis. They ended up poking no few Americans in the eye with it, along the way, as the local shale exploration boom has closed up lately.

the Saudis are intent on proving to the BANKERS who invest in Shale oil that they should read the small print - the oil buiness knows the price goes up and down like .. (fill in inapropriate pharse here)........

Next time round the cost of investment will be significantly higher, which the Saudis like - plus it stops/slows the spread of fraccing elsewhere

then it's one in the eye for the Iranians as well

the colateral damage to Mr Putin and people like Venezuala is pure icing

and of course it reminds the White House just who are the US's "oldest friends" in the region -especially as they'll follow through with some large orders for airliners, military hardware and infrastructure

Argentina and Israel resume Kfir sale talks
 

On Flight Global:-
And the money will come from???

This is the third time the conversations are resumed...

Apparently, they like to talk to each other.

With a single, very thirsty J79, it'll have short legs. No amount of Elta avionics is going to make up for that. Not sure if it's AAR capable.....

it seems unlikely that, given the number of 'deals' that various countries (not least the Israelis..) have done with Argentina over the years that have subsequently foundered, the Israelis have not ensured that the money does infact exist..

the Kfir airframe certainly is AAR capable, whether these particular examples are is another question - interesting of course that in another current purchace, the Argentine AF is buying a pair of KC-130's. its possible its a coincidence of course, and it may well come to pass that these aircraft won't be delivered with AAR, but i'm not sure i'd put much cash on it.

I'd be interested to know if the new Govt have signed up for this -as they are desperately trying to get the books back in shape after the gross misspending of the Kirchner years.

The military may have said that they have to have SOMETHING and so the loose change in the bottom of the desk drawer has been scraped up and the only thing that is available at the price are some very old Kfirs - a 40 year old design based on a 65 year old design............

the Kfir deal has been floating about for 3 or so years to my recollection, it may even pre-date the Spannish F1 deal that had actual Argenine pilots actually flying Spannish F1's in actual Spain - the suggested reason it fell through was that the French refused to grant the Spannish permission to sell them to Argentina.

the cynical might wonder if that was because the French had their own F1's they wanted to unload, or because the French did us a favour. the very cynical might wonder if it was both...

it seems, to me, very unlikely that the Israelis would continue with this merrygoround without being very sure that both the money, and the intent, was available - and i rather doubt this latest press release would have occured if the new government wasn't on board.

I think it was not serious back in 2014 about acquiring old Russian Su-24. A year later there were similar rumors about a similar deal with the Chinese that did not materialise either :
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/558226/China-Argentina-falkland-islands-fighter-jets


It looks like Argentina first has to define the goals. Why do they need tactical bombers or, more general, attack aircraft? To attack Falklands? Sounds not serious because a single Patriot battery will keep them pretty far away. Attack the ships as they did (with a certain success) back in 1982? In this case they first have to find (where to buy) modern anti-ship missiles since "good old" Exocets are now really outdated. Aircraft (if any) would then be considered only in the context of (capability of) carrying those missiles. And Kfirs do not carry anti-ship or cruise stuff, do they?

We would never start a war with Russia as we simply do not have the facilities to house all of the prisoners.


..

NutLoose, is Argentina part of Russia? I did not know .... Keep joking, the guy you are quoting is perfectly right ;)


As for the topic, if Argentina manages to buy Russian anti-ship missiles (even with scaled down range to meet the international treaty) it would be a head-ache for UK, indeed.

from recall the Argentines have mooted, signed, or back away from, deals over US F-16's, French Mirage 2000's, Kfirs, Spannish F1's, Brazilian Gripen, Russian SU-24, something Chinese, and now we're back to Kfir.

its certainly easy to say that if they've not bought anything yet then they aren't going to, but we know that the Spannish deal went a long way down the track, and we know that this is the second bite of the Kfir cherry - i fail to see why, given that track record, the Isrealis would even bother replying to emails if they weren't sure the money existed.

I see the Argies have sunk a Chinese fishing boat they allege was illegally fishing in their waters.

Argentina sinks Chinese fishing boat Lu Yan Yuan Yu 010 - BBC News

Could get interesting!

So did they sink them with the warning shots? Need to work on the targeting I think, or look up the definition of 'warning'.

And I guess that will be Argentina off Beijing Christmas card-yes of course we'll sell you cut price armaments list.

In the meantime, updated Kfirs versus Typhoons. Ooh, that's a tough one...

In the meantime, updated Kfirs versus Typhoons. Ooh, that's a tough one...

it is - right up to the point where its 16 Kfirs vs 4 Typhoons, the Typhoons don't have a divert, and the Typhoons have to protect incoming cargo and passenger aircraft and ships that don't have SAM's.

how do four Typhoons cope with a co-ordinated action where SIGINT catches a deliberate sniff of a pair of Kfir and a tanker hanging around the approach route from ASI 500 miles north of MPA, another pair with a tanker are hanging around 100 miles SW of W Falkland, and then we see another pair, or even two pairs, bore in at 500kts on a direct heading from the NW?

how do four Typhoons cope with that our friends do it 4 days running?

Meteor.....?

That's easy.

Don't try to do it with Typhoon.

There is often an SSN in that part of the world...

... coming soon to an air base near you. :cool:

(My point there is that an SSN, appropriately equipped, can caushttp://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/edit.gife interruptions to your planned sorties)
.

Why would you defend merchant shipping with an aircraft?

Far better to make the point that Argentinian shipping is far more vulnerable.....

This is a silly discussion. One of the things the Falkland war proved is that the Argentinians are one of the sadly limited number of countries who play rigidly to the rules and fight wars honourably. You think they are going to go off shooting down civvy airliners and shipping?

Sorry for a stupid question, but is it really just a group of 4 Eurofighter aircraft there (I do not count Hercules and VC10)? Patriots seems to be an obvious complementary stuff that would fix potential holes in the defence perimeter.