F4C versus MIG21
 

Interested declassified report on F4C versus MIG21 in Vietnam. Print quality of PDF not too good unfortunately but mostly readable.

Thanks for that ricardian, interesting....some background on Silver Dawn:
The short but interesting life of a plane called rivet top. - Free Online Library

Oh dear.

Please skim through this;

http://www.slideshare.net/mishanbgd/...ig21?related=5

and this;

http://www.slideshare.net/mishanbgd/...erms?related=4

before we end up in another circular and ultimately pointless argument, because the facts are quite simple to understand.

Oh dear...were we arguing?

Well Mr N, aka Hanoi Jane, would hope so.

Silly boy!

How could you confuse the world-renown Yo-Yo Noritake with that evil woman?

HJ is a bloke, just like you.

HI is a bloke, just you.

I KNOW that sentence means something, I'm just not sure what.

Translation pls.

See? Change a letter, add a word and the whole thing makes sense.

But we're talking about F4C's and Mig 21's here. Do you have a point to make in this discussion?

And while we're on the subject (or, rather, while I am...) why do many here have an irrational belief that if it begins with 'Mig' it's naturally inferior to whatever model of American/Brit/Euro air-machine were its contemporaries?

I know I come from 'the other side of the fence' on this one, but we were never blessed with a intelligence services which under-rated those types we might come up against. If anything, we tended to believe your hype, only to discover later that the reality of your equipment was far less than your brochures promised.

Client state pilots rarely achieved the training levels of their Soviet counterparts yet, in Viet Nam and on occasions in the various Arab - Israeli conflicts, Mig pilots in various versions acquitted themselves admirably against a far better trained adversary equipped with (allegedly) more advanced aircraft.

If you want it in a nutshell, Migs have always had the edge - both in terms of maneuverability and serviceability* - against Western fighters of a similar era.

There. End of discussion. Merry Christmas everyone!


* I would exclude the products of SAAB from this assessment. They design like Russians.

N.B. the MiG 21 series underwent a long period of development and, as with many other aircraft, the "export" versions weren't necessarily representative of the serving home product..
In conversations with MiG 21 and Ex- MiG 21 pilots in the 80's , I found this point was often made.

"bis" wasn't just a cosmetic appellation :)

Mr N, HJ was a compatriot of yours and noted for near trolling and was banned, reprieved and banned again.

Trolling? HJ was hilarious, and I'm glad he's back.

Mr Noritake,

Remember that the early Migs would have been nothing if the British Government had not given the Soviets our jet angine technology.
Even up to recent years the Russian Avaition Industry has lagged behind with the latest computer technology. However, once they GAIN the information they are quick to put it to good use.
The Western Airforces used to laugh at those who only achieved 150 hrs a year and did much with simulation. How times have changed.
There is still no doubt in my mind that in 1970 - 1982 the Phantom FGR2 was the most capable fighter aircraft in the Central Region.

Mr Navigator, if what you say is true, I'm sure this 'Hanoi Jane' character merely proposed a perspective at variance with that acceptable to the majority. Reason enough, I'm sure, to be dismissed in disgrace.

After all, pointing out that long cherished opinions may be naught but the befuddled thinking of rapidly atrophying minds is a little... well... rude.

I'm glad he's gone. However, I shall endeavour to carry his torch albeit in a kinder and more compassionate manner.

Now, may we return to the Mig 21 which would have spanked the bottom of your Vulcan like the naughty uninvited guest it would have been?

Indeed, Dominator2. I suspect the Mig 15 might not have been the pain in the ass it became had it not been for the kindness of the British Government of the day.

I'm comforted to hear you feel the FGR 2 represented the 'most capable fighter aircraft in the Central Region'. As my seasonal gift to you I shan't trouble you with evidence to the contrary.

Mr N, your intelligence services were not alone in over estimating opposition hardware. If they assessed the opposition was wholly inferior then the military case for upgrades and new designs would be weakened.

Remember the Mig 15 in its day was a world beater. The F4 was superior to the Mig simply because it out classed it with missiles, endurance, refuelling, performance, equipment and two crew.

In a 1v1 in a merge advantages dropped to fuel and a second pair of eyes.

A contemporary US int report said "one 360 deg orbit thrown sufficiently far out is sufficient to abort the average GCI."

If we're talking about the heyday of the F4 / Mig 21 then we have enough contemporary evidence to be slightly more transparent than your post suggests.

The F4 rarely flew with all its toys in working order, its missiles were quite fearsome - when they worked, which wasn't often, and its superior endurance wasn't really relevant when its opponent could disengage with minimal risk when the fuel light blinked. However I'll happily admit that a second pair of eyes in the cockpit in that era could be a game-changer.

The relative performance of each aircraft in Viet Nam speaks for itself, with the caveat that the statistics presented by both sides still can't be trusted. It suited the Vietnamese to claim an air-to-air victory when ground fire or SAM's may have accomplished the dirty deed, and it suited the Americans to claim their losses weren't due to an 'obsolete' aircraft flown by a tiny oriental, but to some random peasant with a lucky shot or a Soviet controlled SAM site.

Mr Navigator, you're not a silly chap. You know far more than you discuss here regarding the relative merits of '70's, '80's and '90's Soviet and Western aircraft and supporting defensive / offensive systems. So why do you tease me so?

Just admit it. The Mig 21 gave you nightmares. Probably still does.

Mr N, wrong opponent.

The Mig 21 was generally assigned to the Tactical Air Armies, all 4,000 of them

Our main opposition was the Fishpot and later Flaggon although our assessment was that the greatest threat came from the Firebar. There we care talking of an aircraft in the same class as the Sea Vixen and to some extent F4.

No, no, Mr. N is 100 percent correct. That is why anytime western air forces came up against Migs, the Migs always had total air superiority over the western air forces.

I don't think that an F-15 as ever shot down a Mig, not even a Mig 15.

OK456:

Because hitting the 'shift' key mid-or-end-word upsets my equilibrium.

con-pilot:

I wondered when the cavalry would ride to the rescue... :-)

Interesting. There was/is a regular contributor on a British Army website from the 'other side' ... he was actually interesting, informative and didn't stir things for the sake of it. Actually quite a good chap.

MPN11

That's certainly interesting.

Mr N, not talking now?

PN:

I suspect you'd have met more Mig 21's than anticipated.

I know very little of the European theatre of '70's - '90's so I shall defer to your greater experience in the area. Surprised about the Yak 28 though. I never heard anything positive about it, seemed to have a reputation as a crew-killer.

And I'm eating my dinner. Give me a break, huh?

Mr N, expected to operate behind the Fishbeds, they were not assigned to the IAPVOStrany. The Yak had a superior radar, until we got hold of a copy, as it was a 2-seater. The Foxhound was also a significant threat but tended to be deployed to counter SAC rather than us.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovie...Defence_Forces

OMG? You STOLE a radar that wasn't yours? How damned underhand!

And to think, I totally supported all those who said the Chinese stealing the F 35 'secrets' wasn't the way to play the game...

BTW, did you know that Continental Europeans don't have a word in their language for 'fair play'? Only the Brits and the Chinese have one. We should be friends, we think the same way.

We didn't steal it, they delivered it, a bit like the USMC delivering an AWG 10 to the NVA.

Jane

You have a habit of offering opinion. Offer up substantiated, verifiable facts if you want to sway opinion. Your posting are better matched to a Vietnamese Tom Clancy style book than to pprune.

Of course, regardless of how 'amusing' Mr Nortaki's conversations are, its also a very 'amusing' fishing expedition from some perspectives.

But then the grown-ups here already know that.


I got rid of all my Noritake china years ago. My first wife took it all.

Mr.Noritake,

My job in the early 70's, if the balloon had gone up was, flying an RAF FGR2, to drop a bucket of US supplied instant sunshine on a SAM site in East Germany.

We knew exactly how many Mig 21's we would have faced, and we knew exactly where they were. They would not have stopped us...

I'm hot for you too, West Coast.

Here's a plan; instead of expecting me to offer proof of my outrageous claims, how's about you offering an independent analysis which disproves anything I've suggested regarding the '60's and '70's era F 4?

Set to it, m'boy!

MPN 11, still have ours and even found a source fir replacements.

prOOne:

*sigh*

Jane

Lemme see, you want me to try and prove your case for you when you offer up opinion as fact. Yeah...no.

You can set off on your own unverifiable goose chase. Your post might as well not exist as it's opinion based only. And that opinion is that of a defense writer and not omeone with first hand knowledge.

Looking at Wiki, there is an impressive number of kills attributed to the Mig.

Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I haven't sought comparable numbers for the counter however.

West Coast:

I suspect you already realise how little I care for your opinion. Had you, at any stage in our various encounters, displayed evidence of an open enquiring mind on the subject(s) under discussion I might feel differently. But you haven't, so I don't.

I'm not here to persuade you, nor do I expect to move you one millimetre from your entrenched beliefs. I'm here to express an opinion; an opinion based in part on personal experience and in part of the experiences of those with whom I've been privileged to serve.

You have your stance. I respect that. But I see no need for us to continue to engage in meaningless and pointless disputes. We have nothing to learn from each other. Kindly add me your 'ignore' list.

Merry Christmas.

According to this source: The F-4C Phantom II

F-4 (all models) kills during the Vietnam War: 164.5
F-4 Kill Ratio - Vietnam: 2:1
F-4 kills (all models to date): 280

Con Pilot - F15s had confirmed kills against Mig 21,23,25 and 29 in the 1991 gulf war.

I seriously doubt there will ever exist, this side of eternity, an accurate and verifiable list of F4 or Mig 21 'kills' in any confrontation. Too many vested interests at play.