I wouldn't crawl over her cv to get to yours recce........

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/46779...endeavour.html

EXACTLY!! and if you cannot see your lead, you cannot see your horizon. If in straight and level flight your lead is at your 9-10 O'clock at the same altitude and you both bank 30 degrees and both maintain altitude (meaning you cannot climb to stay on your lead's roll axis) you will not be able to see your lead unless you have an eyebrow window. Tactical airdrop formations in an airlifter are very different than formations in fighters.

Tourist,

Thanks for the link, that does confirm what I wrote (and already knew) :
that she is a Cat B Test Pilot (different from a Cat A Experimental Test Pilot)
( .. to command inside the enveloppe..) so definitely no flypast. There is a hierarchy to stick to.

Prior to EASA enforcement, they were simply not called Test Pilots. You have excellent threads on that subject in the "Flight Testing" forum here

Regarding CVs ... you would be surprised. But who cares ? only written material is of some importance on pprune

I am talking about a tactical formation in airlifters with a longer gap between aircraft, but not separated by miles. When the formation turns, the guy on the outside of the turn cannot climb to stay aligned with the lead's roll axis. He stays at the same altitude while rolling with the lead and speeds up to maintain his position relative to the lead. Think of it as a turn in 2 dimensions rather than 3. Based on what I read here, you guys would call it a "flat" turn. Formation flat turns are routine in airlifters. And it requires that you have eyebrow windows, and that is exactly why the vast majority of tactical airlifters have eyebrow windows. I'm just wondering how the A400 gets by without them.

Good idea! Now try this:

Place both hands on a table top, side by side. Now raise both hands 3 inches above the table top. Lead is your left hand. "Roll" both hands 30 degrees to the left while keeping the centerline of both hands 3 inches above the table top. Without an eyeborw window, how does the pilot flying your right hand see his lead who is flying your left hand?

Did that help?

KenV, correct! Low-level tactical formations, either by fast jet or tactical airdrop formations, are flown in an entirely different manner to close formation.

Close formation flat turns are rather more difficult than close formation turns in vic or echelon. As a sprog Hunter pilot, I well recall being No.3 of a 5-ship flat turn through initials at 500ft and 420KIAS running in to RAF Brawdy for the 25th Hunter anniversary flypast - muttering "Do NOT cock this up!" to myself!

As for 'test pilot' definitions, the lady in question certainly is an outstanding ETPS graduate and a TP in the full meaning of the term. That she currently conducts flight tests within the aircraft's allowable flight envelope isn't particularly relevant - one day she might well be in command of an 'A3n0' on its first ever flight!

I used to fly post-maintenance air tests on the VC10K, which had the odd 'exciting moment'. Although some of the test points were outside normal squadron pilots' limits, such as high IAS, high IMN and low IAS handling, that didn't require a 'TP' endorsement, hence we used the term 'air test' pilot.

- in a word, no:) How do you turn 'your' formation to the right? How much close formation flying HAVE you done?

Here's a clue - a close formation turn. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...HtxCuJrB5ri618

BEagle

one day she might well be in command of an 'A3n0' on its first ever flight!

Absolutely no way - as she is only a CAT B Test Pilot, with a somewhat light background compared to other TP in that business. But you might be right - with some affirmative action, everything is possible. By the way, I'm very impressed that she did re-mortaged her house to pay for the Course... which does prove again that money was a requirement for her to start this (abbreviated) Course.

..hence we used the term 'air test' pilot.. You could call yourself what you want, between yourselves ....

Regarding the discussion about close formation, could all the ones never having done any of it leave the room, please ?

Regarding the cockpit field of view of the A400, that's the one of the mythic Transall, so it should do the job ...

Apparently you've not done low level tactical formations in large aircraft where what you folks call "flat" turns are required.

A right turn is done exactly the same way as a left turn (mostly). The airplane on the inside of the turn is always the lead. This is very different than typical fast jet formation flying and takes a lot of coordination. Now let me explain the "mostly" part. Since in big airplanes the pilots sit side-by-side, the pilot in control of the aircraft often has to swap when making right vs left turns because it's very difficult (or impossible) to do cross-cockpit formation turns. It takes a LOT of crew coordination to do formation flying right in big airplanes.

Plenty. Started out flying close formation in T-28s and have flown close formation in several different airframes, including A-4, F/A-18, T-38/F-5, and others. But that is NOT what I'm talking about. Formation flying in large formations of large aircraft is COMPLETELY different.

And about that picture of F-16s you provided, that is NOT what is being discussed here.
Take a look at this picture of a large formation of C-17s. Making formation turns in such a formation is VERY diffent than making turns in a close formation of fighters.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi..._formation.jpg

er.......Ken - this is the formation we are all talking about - not sure which one you are on about. I will be most impressed if you can flat turn this...........:eek:. You may not get the job of lead, though.....

Cue loud plastic banging noises?

Your C17 pic was known in the RAF as 'same way, same day':)

Yup, and did you see them make any kind of formation turns while in that formation? Is it even possible to make a close formation turn with large jets in such a formation? The only turns I saw were done by individual aircraft turning AWAY from the rest of the formation and not by the formation as a whole.

If you've seen a video of these A350s making a formation turn, can you provide the link?

Well..................... 0:43 and 1:33? - your move.

Not exactly Ken, you've completely missed the point. I'm talking close formation here, just like in the video. In all the large aircraft formation I've done I stay in formation, so when my leader rolls left or right I climb or descend slightly so that I can maintain IN FORMATION. Simples!

Look at the video again. At 0:43 the "formation turn" is an illusion caused by the photo aircraft maneuvering, not the formation of A350s.

At 1:33 on my screen it was really hard to see what was going on. But from what little I could see, it was another case of the photo bird maneuvering rather than the formation.

The operative word in your phrase "I climb or descend slightly" is "slightly". In a large formation of large aircraft the "climb or descend" cannot be "slightly". If the airdrop formation is 1000 feet (or less) above the ground in a formation of four C-17s, the bottom C-17 ends up trying to "descend" below ground level. Nature has a nasty way of resolving the conflict between granite and aluminum. That's why in those formations, the formation turns are done flat.

VERY cool, well done Airbus.......:D

Ken, You are both talking at cross purposes. Yes in tactical formations level turns are ofter done but you are NOT in close formation.
Even in close it can get scary if the leader is a plonker. I flew a mixed C130, 2xKingAir and 2xHS125 formation. The HS125s were on the outside of a big Vic. When the lead C130 ended up at 250ft agl (due to being on the wrong pressure setting) and then went into a 30 deg turn - guess what height the inside HS125 was at. When you get squeezed between aircraft and the rocks it is not too great!!
There is more to mixing different ac types and pilots from different roles and backgrounds than meets the eye. Assumed knowledge can be very dangerous.

But we aren't talking about tactical low level formations Ken, we are talking about flying close formation in large aircraft. Looking at your list of "I've flown close formation in" there doesn't appear to be any large aircraft, so I'm not sure you are qualified to comment. Flying close formation in any aircraft means the wing men manoeuvre in height in a turn and that doesn't matter whether you are in a fast jet, small multi or large multi - the techniques are the same! Take it from someone who has flown close formation against a large number of different types.

Oh and I have been the guy placed on the inside of a turn at low level and finding the surface a little closer than I would have wished. The lead was a Bear Foxtrot on that occasion though. :ok:

Close formation at 250ft agl

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130132...3/15875246278/

No cross cockpit flying here. However, we did not barrel roll.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/130132...3/15875403790/