Herod, admit it. You were photographing FEARLESS and the other palm-tree got in the way. :ok:

OK Evalu8ter, I take your point, although boll*cks was a bit strong. My experience was back in the late sixties and the helos were unarmed. Basically Wessex v Hunter scenarios.

I watched Chinook v Hawk fight over my farm a couple of months back and it was very interesting to behold. Its not that uncommon I suggest.


WWW

Herod,
Apologies old chap - I was a little 'refreshed' at the time! The problem as I often found was actually working the jets into a position where they could actually find us...including several times against radar jets. Now, if the FJs acquired the helos, and the RW crews were not trained in the correct tactics, then you're probably correct....the 2v2 Scout / Pucara fight in 1982 is a tragic illustration.

Again, sincere apologies.

For whatever its worth, there were a few well documented actual jet vs helo engagements in the first Gulf War. The helos lost. Most were downed by missiles, but two helos were downed by the A-10's 30mm gun and one was hit (in flight!) with a 2000 lb laser guided bomb released by an F-15E. The helo disintegrated.

FJ v helo - 1 v 1 and 1 v 2, a fundamental part of the QHTI course, and a hoot to boot:E I assume the course still runs?

Sun.

KenV,
Indeed - a Hip killed by A10s and a Hind fragged (literally.....) by a Mudhen. I had a pair of F15s simulate that on me once after we'd trashed every mx shot they tried....Neither RW crew were tactically aware, and were operating in hostile skies with little to no support or SA. Both kills were cued by AWACS. The LGB was used as it out ranged the AIM-9.

Far better to study is the Iran/Iraq war; hundreds of all sorts of engagements both FJ v Helo and Helo v Helo.

Sun - the course still runs. Happy days....

Probably the one mentioned in the NOTAMs last week, (I forget which day now) diagonal orange line running S.E. from Yeovilton to Blandford Forum, worded to the effect of "Air interception exercise involving 3 aircraft of different types" hope this helps in answer to the OP.

Though during the time when the AH-58D armed Kiowa Warrior was about to be declassified after the return to Ft Bragg from the Gulf.....they were armed with MIM-32A Stinger. The AH-58D had replaced or supplemented the Nightstalkers A/MH-6 operating off the barges with SEALs on board during Pray Mantis / Prime Chance.

Rumor had it that the Stingers may have been fired against Iranian fighters according to Hans Halberstadt's Army Aviation (Presidio Power series pub circa 1989)

Were we not toying with Blowpipe / Javelin trials on Gazelle in the 80s but nothing came of fruition?

The 80s trials at White Sands with AH-64 firing an AIM-9L but it was not standard arm for the army but again during the Persian Gulf, the USMC armed their AH-1T then AH-1W with AIM-9L.

Cheers

Oz,
I did say 'fast'...!

IMHO The Jag was the easiest FJ of the lot to beat in a RW; poor vision post merge, poor turning performance, no radar or IRSTS, only one set of eyes and a big-ish planform when (trying to) turn. Never looked comfortable at low speed (no pun intended), but then nor did the F3....Doubtless the HMD and ASRAAM combo (which I think the Indians got?) would have been a massive improvement. The fact is, to set up for a low level lay down attack requires the jet to acquire and maintain tally for a long time, and assumes the Helo doesn't do anything about it. If you can blanket an area with Frag then well done - but it's not as easy to do as it sounds and would require a large slice of luck for one jet with one or two weapons (unless you're plinking from ML with a LGB). When the -15Es did it to me they simulated 2x Mk84 per jet and I was over the water so maintaining either radar or visual padlock was a lot easier....

Great fun trying though......

That'll be a bite then.....;-)

I remember there was a plan to incorporate a RW exercise around Spadeadam/Otterburn during a Mallet Blow in late 80s.


With both the FJ and RW concentrating on other tasks it would have been interesting to see how much interaction (and kills) there was from the strike packages running into their targets.


To muddy the waters certain helos types would have been deemed as friendly and others as the opposition


I'm guess it got canned over lack of deconfliction!

No deconfliction on Ex Sparrowhawk in May '69. We were flying loose gaggles of Wessex, Whirlwind and Scout (iirc) until attacked by the Hunters, when it was every helo for himself. Not unknown to come barrelling round a copse to find a colleague going the other way. We were flying two pilots up, with one keeping a running commentary on tape, while plotting position every few seconds on a 1" OS map. One crew reportedly managed to record, via the throat mike, the noise of the Hunter's engine. :eek:

23rd May 1982, Shag Cove, West Falkland. I x Puma with wingtip vortices, I x Augusta 109A gunship with 30mm Aden and another Puma with 30mm on the ground.

They flew too low over an inlet and left a snail trail on the water. Mistake! The gunship escort then tried to run away instead of engaging me with his rockets.

And I used to be a helo pilot!!

Read it all in "Hostile Skies". !!

Only the simple fighter pilot tries to turn with a helo for an on bore sight shot. We can't get away, but we'll make your life very frustrating until you run out of gas.

The incident I'm referring to involved an Iraqi Hughes 500. It was on the ground when the LGB was released. The flight crew kept the laser designator on the helo as it became airborne and the bomb obliterated it.